We have asked the question before “would you have found this during your primary?†Scott Chappell from Marion County Fire Rescue sent in another to add to the collection. This “room†was found in a three story residential structure, underneath the first floor stairwell. This room is used as a children’s playroom. Notice in the photo that the door is only about 4 ft tall (the panels on the door burnt away in the fire.)
So ask yourself these questions: Would you have searched this during the primary? Would you have noticed the height of the door and dismissed it? Would you have decided not to bother because it was an outward swinging door? Would you have discovered it during a secondary?
Another thing to consider is the tendency for children to hide when they are scared. The likelihood of this room being occupied during a fire is probably higher then we would like to admit.
Judging by the size of the door it’s hard to decide whether or not that room would have been searched during the primary. With a 4 ft door, my first assumption would be that it was just a crawl space (which it is pretty much) or a storage area. Never would have thought about it being a playroom. During the secondary, however, I may go back and see just what was in there. The problem with searching that room, judging by the pictures, is that it is very confined and has a confusing layout. If that room was smoke filled it could be a real problem due to the layout and confinement. Not only that, but you also have to find the 4 ft door to get back out. Just one mans views.
Looks like it was a converted pantry or closet/storage area. I wonder if any fire codes would cover this topic? However, I would definately not venture to far into here since i am six four 250lbs!! i must admit i would have not payed close enough attention to this until the secondary search.
This photo brings up a similar situation encounter awhile back. While searching the floor above with children found in the front bedroom, we continued our search. The next room entered had a small doorway similar to this one, built out on the far wall. The narrow door was pushed opened and area searched with the use of a tool. Still in the blinding smoke it challenged the mind. A second sweep with the hands proved negative but felt like searching inside a box. Search results after the fire; a bunk bed that was made into a play house. Normally, you wouldn’t find these in the South Bronx, but then again whats normal about fires?
If your smoke house or training center doesn’t have a bunk bed simulator for search think about making one. It will remind the brothers to feel up the end posts for the additional bed.
I think I may have felt you feel up the posts on my bunk a few times! Stay on your side of the wall!
A bit confused on what door height has to do with anything during primary search in that we “should” be on hands and knees searching. The outward openign door issue presents the “Oh it opens outward, MUST be a closet” issue. I stopped paying “strict” attention to that factor. Search EVERYTHING, Search EVERYWHERE.
Once missed the top level of a bunk bed during a primary in a snotty frame fire. When I went back in that room after smoke lifted and realized what I missed, it made me sick thinking what “could have been”.
Also, be aware of the desired changes being made when searched by instructors. Use “tool” to maintain contact with wall and use hands to search to remove severely injurign the victim with the tool. Next time you are drilling, watch how agressive members are with tool as they “swing” it across the floor and picture it striking you or a child. Had a kid holding the forked end of the halligan and he was swinging it across the floor. He spun around and swung in the other direction. My feet were in his path. The picked / Adz end doesn’t tickle at that speed.
Good stuff on here brothers
Stay Safe out there.
The second photo wasn’t taken through the door opening shown in the first photo was it? Were there 2 doors?
Also; indeed these storage rooms can be quite common and yes, I would hate to miss one (or any door for that matter ;)).
Fits
Looks like the same door, different angle.
Upon forther review it doesn’t look like the same door. The second picture looks like an opening that didn’t have a door (notice the base molding).
I have seen similar “closets” on the lower level of “high ranch” style houses.
In the old days, I may or may not have even found the door or the room. Now, with TICs, there’s no excuse. Keep in mind that in communities that have accute, low income, housing issues you will find such rooms being occupied as rentals. A few years ago we had room and contents in a 2 br, 1ba home being rented to at least 4 families with a total of 14 occupants.
Looks like the first photo is of the entry into the small room. The second photo is of the wall partially dividing that small room.
Quote:Dave January 16th, 2008 7:58 pm
“Looks like the first photo is of the entry into the small room. The second photo is of the wall partially dividing that small room.”
Ah, that makes sense. It would appear as though the secondary area was indeed under the stairs.
I was just thinking how you could make this small area even more difficult to deal with.
Divide it and put a steeply sloping ceiling that runs right to the floor in half of it!
I agree with facethefloor what has the direction of the door swing or for that matter a door at all have to do with anything. Wasn’t it my drill instructor who said ” never pass a room with out searching it” (BASICS PEOPLE!) and today most of us have t.i.c.s. Do the job right or stay out of the way
Think about all the EMS calls you go on and be somewhat nosy in the house. If I am able, I will ask the homeowner about any wierd construction features in the home. It is a great opportunity to do some residential familiarity in your 1st due. Keep your eyes open and look around and up. You might find something surprising.
That is what’s great about EMS. EMS personnel see the insides of houses a lot more than we (firefighters) do. Not only do they see the insides of them, they see them when they aren’t on fire.
I read, either on this site or in some fire magazine, that not much time should be spent with searching closets during a primary search. It wasnt the first time I’ve come across that suggestion. One sweep with your arm into a closet and then move on. Makes sense considering the size of your average residential closet and the size of pple including little kids. One sweep would determine objects stored or a person therein.
I’ve came across a search situaion not too long ago where the door appeared to be that of a closet and when one sweep of the arm DIDN’T determine objects stored, DIDN’T determine a person therein, and DIDN’T determine the depth of the closet it sent up a Red Flag. What couldt this be?? a bigger than normal closet?? an additional makeshift room?? High drug and crime areas such as mine will have these hidden rooms. Point im making… if you come a cross a door that apears to be a closet door and you search it without making the determination that it is indeed a closet… don’t pass it up. Look further and advise your partner, if with one, what you’re doing.
That was a GREAT submission. Excellent Topic. Thanks FF Chappell
I just read chicago found a kid in a closet under clothes. Kid was dead.This was in a home day care.
A friend of mine just built a new home and had a small computer room built in. For all intents and purposes it appears to be a closet from the hallway, but the door opens to an 8’x 8′ room with a computer desk built into the wall.
People are becoming more creative in designing and remodeling homes and taking advantage of what used to be dead space. We have to adapt our tactics to meet this head on.
When my brother-in-law remodeled his home, he took a storage space and turned it into a playroom like this for their 2 kids. The scary thing is that the access door is a little 3 ft high door in the back wall of the master bedroom closet. I almost crapped myself when they first showed me.
Luckily, they did have the foresight to sprinkler that space (and the rest of the house).
Personally, I make every attempt to toss any area that I find during a search. Even if it is a closet (and especially if people, and kids in particular, are reported trapped or unaccounted for), I stick my head in and poke around just long enough to satisfy myself that nobody is there. It’s also a helpful way to find extension on your own terms before it jumps out and bites you later.
The question to ask yourself when faced with whether to search an area or not is if you’re willing to bet the life of whoever may be (or is) trapped that they’re not in that space. I don’t want to find out later that the one room or area I was ‘sure’ was clear wasn’t and someone was hurt or killed because of it. If our assignment is to do the primary, we should do the primary. Missing areas (different than not getting into heavily involved areas until the engine pushes in or not doing areas that pose an unacceptable risk to us) during a search is not completely executing the primary search.
One thing I learned in class that has been reinforced in the field is to always check behind doors. A couple years ago while doing a truck class in a vacant, we found a bathroom door that was completely hidden by the inward-swinging apartment door in one of the units. Not checking behind that door could well have been the difference between someone getting out alive and not had there been a fire there while the building was occupied.
Be safe.
These are becoming more common as people “rebuild” houses. In the house I grew up, we had a pantry under the stair. Though it had a full size door at one end, the other had a 2’x2′ door at floor level. This became one of my favorite hiding spaces when I was in trouble. Anything can be anything, nothing can turn into something. Even though kids hide in areas “safe” to them, they may not be that obvious to us. To me, this may not be a priority on a primary, though every place is important on a secondary (cabinets, closets, showers, etc.). You have to hit the highly probable places first, then check everywhere else. Listen to the mom and dad. I’m sure they’ll know about this place, you may just have to prompt them. Get in, get ’em, get out.
I personally would have searched it as I have a stairwell where my own kids love to play hide/seek.
It scares me that some of our FF’s have commented that they wouldn’t have.
FFTonya
Most Northern homes have another set of stairs under the stairs going up to our basements. The type of building you go in would dictate what you could ASSume would be there. In Manhattan finding something like this would be strange as space is a premium, but as Champ(o) pointed out the more space you have or the less it costs per square foot more likely you would have places like this. You may not even feel something like this in a zero visibility. Depending on the width of the hallway you may not even know its there! Like Brannigan said, know your enemy!
I don’t want to hijack this thread-there” a lot of good stuff here.
But, what kind of gloves does that guy have on? Anybody know? Are they Firefighting gloves or something else. I picked up a pair of Protech8’s and think they are really good although I doubt they will be that durable. Any other good ones out there.
Stay safe
Excellent discussion and excellent submission! For me it would depend how much fire this is. If its a marginal situation, I search the most common areas, beds, hallways, behind doors, under windows but I don’t spend that much time in closets or bathrooms, but that is when the fire is begining to get the upper hand because either ventilation isn’t working or because the fire is more then what lines have been brought to the fire.
If it’s just smokey, I search it all.
Looks like there was fire involvment around the top of the door trim of this room so even if it weren’t involved when I initially entered, I’d be in a hurry on that one. Unfortunaly we don’t have choice but to play the odds, meaning searching the “hot spots” because we just won’t have that much time before we get ran out.
It sucks when the fire chases us out, but it happens
To all who questioned about the that beimg the same door or not, It is just from a different angle. I was the one you see sitting in the the door way on a small table tht is a small childs couch down the back of the space. Lt. Chappell had me sit there for refrence on size and shape of the room.
Craig
17 Truck
To Brian on the 19th. They are just work gloves I think made by Dickies. I am a Driver/ Engineer and I use these as much as possible.
Craig
17 Truck
Thanks for reply Craig.
Stay safe
Great article, the day after I read this we responded to a 2nd due working house fire and were assigned primary search on the second floor of a large, approx 2500 sq ft single family home. While searching I came across what turned out to be 2 of these playrooms built into the knee wall of the second floor. I recalled the article with the outward swinging door and low door and knob height. I searched both playrooms and found them to be negative. Thanks
A primary search should be rapid and effective. Spent the most time on the most probable location of a victim, but all areas should be searched. Each building will present its own unique set of problems, as will the location of the fire within that building. You have to take in account all different kinds of factors when preparing yourself mentally for a search. I am not trying to sound like I am writing an article for Firehouse magazine, but think about it. A six story office building at 3 a.m. doesn’t have a high probability of finding more than a cleaning crew standing in the lobby when you get there. A two story middle of-the-row rowhouse at 3 a.m., you will probably find all you victims in the second floor bedroom. On a smoky three story Garden apartment fire with kids trapped, you might find the 2 boys in there favorite hiding spot, the closet.
We have to be smarter than to dismiss doorknobs as unimportant. If it opens, OPEN IT! Kids like to hide in small places, which include closets. On a run into a recently renovated rowhouse there was a small hallway closet door slightly ajar. This is everyone’s typical hallway linen closet right? Upon further inspection it revealed a set of small, almost ladder-like, stairs that led to finished and occupied cockloft. Feeling inside during a primary you would have felt the steps and possible found the family that called that 4 foot high room home. If you made the mental mistake of dismissing it as a closet they might have been found by the roof team trying to vent.
One more example and I will get off my soapbox. I have been in quite a few poorly laid out apartments in the city. On more than one occasion I found myself in a walk-in closet off of the living room. It seams like a weird spot for a closet, doesn’t it. If you crawl to the far end of that closet you would find another closet type (opening out) door. Behind that door was the only bathroom for the apartment. You never know where someone will end up trying to hide from a fire.
If you are assigned to do a search on a fire, SEARCH! We need to stay focused on the task at hand, which in this case is looking for victims. Victims don’t always make it easy by lying down just inside the front door. Sometimes you don’t always find someone on the primary, even when they are lying just inside the front door, but you had better damn well find them on the secondary. That’s why we do two searches, and sometimes three and four. Check everywhere!
HUM DIDNT NOT NO THERE ANYTHING GOOD BOUT “EMS”. I have to disagree with facetothefloor on searching on hands and knees. We are not a standards type search looking for paper clips on the floor. Duck walking or crouching low and moving through the room in a methodical and thorough search is much more rapid, time is off the essence.I think we need to get away from the crawling approach if conditions do not warrant that we stay that low. Just my opinion of what I think works best.
Ummm …. quite a quandry I suppose …. I would say logically that I would search it …. I’m 6’1 and 288 and i would still search it.
This is where your trusty camera comes in every time.
I serious think I would have missed this room. I’ve been in this field for over sixteen years and actualy seen this situation once and yes i missed it. I agree a camera is useful but I most of us would have dismissed the door as either a closet or even a crawlspace
But also remember go back to one of the first things learned about searches. Children tend to hind in closets, under beds and in cabinets. So anytime a door is figured to be a closet it wouldn’t hurt to take a peek.
Primary Search: A fast search usually a head of the hand line searching all compartments possible where a person could fit or survive in.
So yes it should have been searched/ opened if found. It don’t matter if it’s a closet, a cabinet under a sink, If a person can fit there it needs to be searched.
ACFD,
I understand the definition of searching all compartments where someone could fit. Are you stating while doing a primary search of a kitchen you will take the time to open every single cabinet door to check. To me this should be done in a secondary search, just a thought.
I have to say that this was a real eye opener, especially as we had one of these spaces under the basement stairs in the house where I grew up! I’m thinking about my old house now… it was a 5 Bedroom house with the large ‘bedroom’ on the 4 side dedicated as a ‘playroom’. The basement was partially finished, and we had built a fort under the stairs, and we actually had slide up panelling as the door! There was a small handle on both sides of the slide up on the bottom of the panneling… esh! Glad my house never caught fire!