FDNY Ladder 45 showing that sometimes shortjacking is not an option. This is better than a supply line through the window any day!
It’s 04:00… Battalion arrives on scene of a working fire in a multi-family dwelling, people hanging from windows…What would you have done?
We know these pictures are already all over the internet, but we couldn’t resist. Unfortunately, we don’t know who to give proper photo credit to. We will however, be glad to buy the next few rounds for the Chauffeur of Ladder 45!
Can this unit even do a short set? Outriggers look like they have to be wide open to even get to the ground. Our Ladders can, but just wondering? People lives were in jeopardy so a police car is a minor sacrifice for a life. Good Job !!!!
I am not usually one to speculate on things like this but reading multiple articles on the situation, all saying something different, I have to question the situation. If there were people truely “hanging out of the windows” Then you do what you have to do, however, if this were the case the engineer also should have planned for better apparatus placement (assuming pd was there first) and if the PD arrived later, stopped the cop before he left his car. My question is did the engineer do a 360 of his rig? If he did is this outrigger doing anything good? Would an outrigger placed inside a car, with moveable shocks, an all around unstable vehicle, we crib vehicles on MVA’s for a reason. Again I am not stating the Fire Department is wrong, I am also not blaming the PD, all I am doing is asking the questions that are not addressed.
Who Cares! They have a lot of about 500 spare police cruisers!!!! Its a disposable car to this city.
Sammy I know the boss that worked this job and trust me a proper 360 was done. Very smart Boss.
While I’m sure it was very satisfying to squash a cop car wouldn’t it have been easier to back up a few feet or forward a few more, and a lot more stable too ?
The only thing that I think should have been done different is to have placed the other outrigger into another NYPD car! Cops respond to our fires and then park right in front of the fire, it’s like an Engine man leaving no room for the Truck!
I also am curious what sort of stability this would give if using it as the working side. Great Photo though!
This outrigger was not the working side of the rig, according to reports I have heard from FDNY members. Therefore it would be the same as short-jacking the rig and working off the fully-extended side. The short-jacked side is not really doing much other than satisfying the safeties built into modern fire apparatus. The fully extended side, the operating side, is where almost all the stability and downward force is transferred.
That being said, the chauffeur may not have had another choice to pull up, or back up, a few more feet due to earlier or later arriving apparatus, consideration of the operational angle for his main, architectural features of the building relating to using his main and the location of the victims or other overhead obstructions all of which needed to be considered in a split-second.
I fully agree that it is not an ideal situation, but given the design characteristics of the rig and the options presented it may have been a necessary one. Enough hydraulic force applied downward on the outrigger should have taken much of the movement out of the chassis of the squad car, minimizing movement.
That chauffeur is my hero! It is insane how often police muck up scenes with their cruisers. I would have done the same thing.
I am sure that there was no possibility of movement out of the cars suspension. If you look at the photos carefully, that cars underbody is completely in contact with the pavement. The truck when lifted off its rear wheels I am sure has more than enough weight to compltely smash that car into the ground.
As far as asking the cop to move, IF you can find the right cop quickly, and IF he is not inside the building trying to be a fireman, MAYBE he will get it moved before you end up with jumpers.
Sometimes, you just have to do what you have to do.
As much as I appreciate the Boys in Blue, I have the same issues. I could sit a block away on a disturbance call for 15 minutes waiting for them to secure the scene, but when a fire bangs in there are 4 cops in the driveway with fire extinguishers as we arrive. Hey, even cops need heros.
some people that comment make me want to puke, its yous safety nazis that ruin this job as i know it. good job brothers nice work for 45s
I wasn’t there and I so I won’t comment on whether this was a good idea, bad idea, ect but can you imagine the paperwork involved?
Great pic!!! We have the same issues of PD taking up the spots fire apparatus should be placed; however, at my department the entire truck company would have been fired because of the lack of intestinal fortitude at Chief Officer level to fix the growing issue of cops being fire fighters.
Our fire department is too busy finding ways to keep fire trucks parked in the station vs supporting our community. Guess its the new view from above in these tough fiscal times.
Be safe out there!!
What sort of aerial is it? One of their tower ladders? Is shortjacking even an option with these type of outriggers? Doesn’t really look like it as they look like the swing down type. Anyone got any info?
answered my own question. tower ladder and from the pic I saw it definitely doesn’t look like that set of outriggers can be shortjacked. what about the front and back?
This has happened many times in NYC, though never to a cop car that I know of (or anyone can prove!). The aerial drivers know exactly what happens to a car they lay a jack onto- the boy work crushes, the frame bends, the suspension buckles, and the tires will often blow. By the time the jack is fully extended, the undercarriage of the car is QUITE firmly on the ground.
The car isn’t going anywhere- it’s a $30,000 jackpad. The brothers in the bucket and the victims they’re rescuing are safe as kittens.
@Sam are you chauffeur? Let alone even a fireman? Who are you to question anyone about a fire you were not at…
Gotta LOVE IT!!!! FDNY ROCKS……………..
Thanks for great information you write it very clean.
As per a cop from the 33 pct that was on scene.. it is a brand new rmp they just got and the chauffer did a 360 and while he was lowering the tormentor the rmp pulled up… unfortunately these outriggers dont have any lights mounted to them as do some rear mounts…
Our past ladder truck was similar to this one. You do your 360 and go to the control panel on the driver side. The police may have arrived after he checked.
@Steve. The Seagrave towers that FDNY uses, are already short jaked. The front and back jacks go straight down(they dont move horizontally from the truck like E-1s or Sutphens for example) and the tormentors(Which is the 1 that is pictured) come out from vertical on a hinge and lay out into the street for side to side stability. If you go to Seagraves website, then click on our trucks then AerialscopeII youll see a pic of 1 set up.
Here’s the REAL story. Without spending a lot of time explaining how we operate, that was the non-working side of the apparatus and the pictures don’t tell the whole story.
The area WAS clear for outrigger placement when the ladder was first parked. There were people and fire showing at windows, so the OV was cut loose by the chauffeur after giving the all clear on his side. The chauffeur also checked quickly. At that point, the police cruiser pulled up into the open spot next to the rig unbeknownst to the chauffeur who was beginning to set up on the opposite side. The outriggers were put down (because it WAS clear a minute ago) and wasn’t even felt crushing the car with everything going on. It was not done on purpose or as a “F U” to the police officers.
Our TLs CAN be short jacked to one side but if the area was clear, why would the chauffeur go that route?
Ladder, Thanks for the input. To add, the older scope’s could be short jacked. The tormentor on the non working side had to lowered just enough for the turn table to clear it. I’m not sure if the newer scope’s are that way.
Technically the trucks can be short jacked but we forbid it. The TL is only made to be operated with all 6 points down. One way to see the other side of the rig when you are alone is to climb up and use your foot to put all the jacks down while you look over the other side. Very familar with everyone involved and they did the right thing based on what they were presented with.
Good morning
We had several older Aerialscopes in my previous department. It was not uncommon for the outrigger on the non-working side to be off the ground 4-12 inches when the boom was extended perpendicular to the truck at a low angle. This probably isn’t the case with the newer TLs, but on ours we could open the cabinet opposite the hydraulic controls and the LCC could look through the torx box area and see out the other side. It wasn’t perfect, but you could at least see if something major occurred during set up. If an additional person was available, they were posted at the officer’s side cabinet to yell through to the LCC if he needed to stop set up for any reason. Man, I miss those trucks, they were great workhorses!!