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Step away from the saw and no-one gets hurt. This picture proves that some people just don’t belong on the Truck Company. We can only hope that this was some training demonstration on what not to do. Otherwise, well, we’re not quite sure what to think. This photo was circulated to us through an email chain so we have no way of knowing who or where it is (besides, that’s not important.) We don’t want to point blame, but this one sure doesn’t make any sense.
At least he’s smiling as he’s about to fall through the hole he just cut….not much right about this photo…hope he walked away.
It’s nice to see someone on a roof with all thier safety equipment on. Always a good side to everything.
This is what happens when you send a hose jockey to the roof.
Stay safe and may we never forget.
– Ben
BFR T2
It seems a bit smokey to be just a roof drill. Maybe a live burn or training smoke?? Either way, poor foot placement, no back-up man, and hopefully this wasnt a real fire incident. To me it looks like hes only on his second cut which is parallel to his first. So I’d like to think his weight wouldn’t push it in, but it’s still good to practice safe habbits.
Has anyone learned the hard way besides me that the ‘slide guide’ on the Cutters Edge has to be slid back before doing the weekly run test? Happened to me the first time and I never did it again but I still sporadically see guys tear the crap out of the guide and the teeth on the weekly check. Excellent reason to be wearing eye protection!
Cant make out what that red thing is in the btm rt hand of the picture? Plastic cup?
Its hard to comment without knowing the Structure. This looks like a flat tar and paper roof. It could have mutiple roofs and maybe this Kat knows this allready. I say put that P.O.S saw down and start swinging like a real Truckee. Power saws are great for metal and tranch cuts. Turn the axe head around and blast right on into that roof.
John… I think the thing in the corner looks like the top of a road cone. Who knows. I would have liked to be a fly on the wall and see the structure first person. Maybe it would clear some things up.
Stay Safe and may we never forget.
– Ben
BFR T2
common sense is part of our PPE.Don’t leave the rig without it. Be safe
This just speaks volumes regarding the level of training that is provided to most firefighters. Unfortunatly, we see this type of saw work very frequently while teaching up and down the east coast and always seize the “teaching moment” to reeducate the students in safe roof work. It’s a shame that 95% of today’s firefighters went through FF1 and maybe FF2 using the IFSTA cartoon books/powerpoints, which we all know do no justice to time-tested and street-prooven techniques like the 7-9-8 coffin or the louvered cuts. The video game generation that is entering the fire service today just requires even more attention and hands on training to become competent mechanical operators and understand/predict the reaction of their actions. It has really become even more incumbant on the senior men to pass along their knowledge and skillset to the new kids coming in.
Gents,
Hey…let’s look through the glass of criticism and observe they whole picture. Now, one can only hope that this was just an innocuous misjudgment of one’s mere foot placement. After all, if I had to procure an educated guess; this individual might be practicing how to paint oneself into a corner.
In fact, I honestly believe that this picture depicts an image of bad habits or oblivion. Sometimes, we just lose focus of what were actually doing. Therefore, incidents such as these can occur rather frequently. So, how do we change this type of behavior and regain our particular focus on certain job tasks? Do think inadequate training maybe an issue? Or is there actually something that is cast deeper than competency?
Well, we will never know because we don’t know the actual circumstances pertaining to this incident; however, one thing still remains certain – cognizance!
This depiction should remind us all to focused on our tasks at hand and address certain ghastly habits if they persistently exist.
Stay safe…
Darrell
Darrell makes an interesting point about this pic. Do we really know what the “intentions” of this firefighters foot placement is? If this is a matter of bad habits, the officer MUST immediately correct this.
Should this be someone that merely lost track of where they were standing & cutting…it stresses a more important factor. We all know that our assignments that are given to us need to be done in an expiditious manner. However, we should never sacrifice safety in order to complete an assignment faster. Several of our brothers have been injured or killed by trying to finish an assignment as fast as possible. We need to slow down, think about what we are doing, and watch not only what’s going on around us, but our own actions as well.
2 foot by 2 foot vent hole! not enough to vent and that i thought is what we cut the hole for in the first place. another building in the back ground with a pitch roof and lots of smoke to hide it. who took the shot of was this staged. either way keeps the rest of us thinking and that is what we need to always do.
Looks almost like a photo shopped image if you look at his outline. Maybe it was set up as a “what not to do” training aid.
I think the red thing in the forground in the cap on the end of the ladder.
Looking at the picture, this looks to be a very shallow pitched roof with tar paper on wood decking,possibly a residential roof based on the building in the backround, maybe over a garage. Foot placement of the foot in the hole is obviously bad. But look at the placement of the back foot and the path of the saw. Should this person slip, he may end up running that saw into a body part.
Also, this firefighter is cutting on the wrong side of the hole. In any roof op, be sure that you do not cut the hole in the path of your emergency exit, or back to you ladder. Looking at the pic, he is facing down slope to the roof and my guess is that his ladder is probably in the direction he is facing. If something goes wrong, he better hope that there is another ladder on the other side of that pitch that he can get to before the roof members give way.
Definately a good picture to show every one in the firehouse and use as a teaching tool of what not to do.
HOT DANG! HAAAA that is GREAT! whew I needed that
I once had a boss who did this. We were doing roof training. He cut the hole starting closest to him and then stepped inside the cut to make the farthest one. I grabbed him from behind and said “your stepping on the hole your cutting.” He wrestled away stating “I know what I’m doing”
To quote Goldfedder “YOU CAN’T FIX STUPID!”
This (we all can hope) is one of the models that we can use to reinforce the need for PROPER training. Our safety should never be compromised!! Re-stating the obvious…our business is inherently dangerous as it is. Let’s not compound that by not carrying out our tasks in a safe manner.
That’s what happens when you send the engine medic to the roof…
Chris mentioned the “7-9-8 coffin” cut (Nov. 11).
First I’ve heard of it. Maybe I’ve done it without knowing the term?
Please explain. My cartoon book doesn’t have it 🙂
Paul,
I’m happy to ‘splain it to ya… but it might be a little too “wordy” to follow.
The 7-9-8 is an “expandable cut”. It’s commonly called the “coffin cut” as you make 2 distinct sections of the hole, opening the first then the second like the lids of a coffin. The “7-9-8” in the name refers to the order of cuts to achieve the end result. It is a 7 cut system generally used on a flat roof. Think of drawing the number “7â€, which you turn into a “9â€, then into an “8†with the saw…
It could also work on a peaked roof, although the “louvered cut†is probably a better option. (For the louvered cut see: http://www.lbfdtraining.com and scroll way down the right side to “Fundamentals of roof ventilationâ€).
Note that your cuts should extend past the intersection with the previous one. This will prevent having to go back to “nip a corner” later. Remember it’s not finish carpentry!
#1: Starting at the highest and farthest point from your egress, cut about 3 to 4 feet back toward the egress. This is the top of the number “7”.
#2: Cut a 45 degree angle down, about 1 foot from the far end of cut #1. This will create an inspection hole (triangle) once cut #3 is started, and later serves as a purchase point to pull the roofing with the hook.
#3: Again starting at the farthest point from the egress, cut about 6-8 feet perpendicular to cut #1. This forms the leg of the number “7”. As the inspection hole drops out when you form a triangle with cut #2, probe the hole with the hook if there isn’t good smoke/fire showing… Make sure you’re in the right spot there isn’t a 2nd roof or cockloft floor below that is going to delay operations before you spend a lot of time. Communicate anticipated delays to Command.
#4: Make a 3-4 foot long cut parallel to cut #3, on the opposite side of the number “7”. (This would be the side closer to your egress route, again working toward your egress.) You are now in the process of creating the number “9”. Don’t stand inside the “hole” once you’ve got more than 2 cuts in progress. 🙂
#5: Starting at the midpoint of cut #3, cut perpendicular back to the end of cut #4. This completes the number “9”, as well as the first “door” of the coffin.
Now take a break from cutting, use the halligan or axe to drive down along the inside edge of cut #4 which will hopefully start pivoting the cut material on a rafter. (Or, hammer along cut #5 if the rafters run that direction.) Get the 6 ft. (or longer) hook into the inspection hole, and pull the material up so it acts like a shield, deflecting smoke, heat, and fire away from you (theoretically).
Use the butt-end of the hook to push down any ceiling material if its not venting well yet. Using the hook end will get caught in the sheetrock/plaster when you try to pull back up. The hook will also grab onto your hand if the tool starts to slide into the abyss as you’re pushing down with the butt-end.
This will complete the first portion, providing initial relief for the interior companies (ya know, the Engine!).
Now it’s time to decide if you’ve accomplished enough ventilation, or if more is warranted. If the job is done get the “shepherds” off the roof. If the Brothers need more ventilation, turn the “9” into an “8”. Back to the saw…
#6: Start at the intersection of cuts #4 & #5. Continue in the same direction as #4, parallel to the long leg of the “7”, again, working back toward the egress.
#7: Connect the ends of cut #3 & #6, completing the number “8”. The reason for making this cut last is that if we did this cut before #6 you would then be standing between 2 cuts to make the last one. You’d also have a cut between you and your egress route.
Repeat the process of pivoting the roof material while using it as a shield, push down any remaining ceiling material, report completion to Command, and exit the roof.
For a nice little graphic that probably shows the process a lot better than I explained it, see page 24 of the August, 2007 issue of Fire Engineering. FDNY Capt. Dan Sheridan wrote a nice little overview of roof ops & cheap training that actually starts on page 20.
FDNY Capt. Mike Dugan has also suggested using kids’ sidewalk chalk as the “saw” and having the guys “cut” the roof on buildings in your district as a drill, or even the front ramp of the firehouse, so you can discuss their hole location and order of cuts, specifically from a safety perspective.
And… Here’s a video produced by the Brothers in Richmond, CA. http://youtube.com/watch?v=294XdkRjYis
I’m not sure if this will work, but I’ll try to embed it, too:
This is an excellent illustrative video, as are several others these guys posted on You Tube. Strong work, men! I would point out, though, that they are working their way away from their avenue of approach (and exit), and the members end up on opposite sides of the hole during the cutting process, with the tool-man flipping the cutout material toward himself… Train like you’ll play, because you’ll end up playing like you trained!
Hope I did an OK job explaining this as an Engine guy… I can already hear y’all rippin’ on me like we’re all standing together in the kitchen!
Happy Thanksgiving & be safe Brothers!
Chris
Ok… embedding the video in the post didn’t work, so just click the link… Be safe.
Just to clear up somethings. This was not a training drill or something staged. This was a 2nd Alarm Commercial Building Fire. This building had a section with a two story area over an indoor pool, a three story section with apartments, and a single story section. This was the part that the firefighter was on at the time he was cutting a vent hole. I think he was just having a brain fart for standing there. This truck company is also known for making very small ventilation holes. That is just a training problem with their members. I was actually on this call with a mutual aid company. I would have to agree with Ben on this one. Don’t send a hose jockey to the roof. I think they are lacking Truck Company Operations Training.
Wow no mask and he is about to go throught the roof like what Ron White said You Cant Fix Stupid
Like Eric said, this is a working 2nd alarm commercial building fire. The building was a local hospital at one time, converted into apartments ( 3 stories ). It at the time of the fire was also a health spa with a indoor pool. This fellow was with our mutual aide truck company as the 1st due truck, ours was OOS when this incident happened. The roof is a single story, the red thing is a cup, the area is on a slope, and the cup was placed their from the ground. I don’t agree with standing in your cut, but in his defense his weight is on his back leg outside of the cut. No one was injured on this incident.