Hydraulic Ventilation, Truck style that is! Firefighter Chris Johnson from City of Concord (NH) sent us this link. They don’t teach this method in any red book, that’s for sure. Ok, before you watch this video, keep an open mind. This tactic will without a doubt be unpopular with some, and that’s OK, we don’t need to agree with each others tactics to learn from each other. It’s still an interesting video that needs to be shared. We are sure that many departments would not allow this method, and many chiefs would come un-glued if they ever saw this happen on the fireground.
Whether you would do it or not, there is one thing for sure, it got the job done! Remember, this method is what saved Capt Abbt’s life in Houston.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG9y5_KtY-k[/youtube]
Thats how we do it here. Its taught in our books. The LCC did it just about perfect, aim for the top two thirds of the window then bring the stick down. The 1st due OV would have been able to do it but his rig was at an angle and thats not the best choice due to the lateral loading of the stick. Just remember, its a lot easier to fix an aerial than it is to plan a funeral! We are always number 1!
Stay Safe and have a Happy Holiday!
Well put Jon…In addition the books (FDNY) also stress not to put the main too far into the window as they may contact the interior ceiling, dropping the plater/drywall and wedging the tip within a joist space. I also made a job once where the LCC put the main right through the HUD window coverings on the fire floor thus relieving the OV, or the inside team, from having to remove them manually with a saw from the exterior or irons from the inside.
I think it is important to think of the rig as a tool and this method is well within its capabilities. I have yet to see any truck, that does a fair bit of work, have alot of accessaries at the top of the main ( quartz lights, cord reels etc). Just something to think about before writing specs. Remember, we are in the business of going to fires, not parades. Set it up for work, not for show.
Our stick is set up so that this would NOT be possible. We have large quarts lights mounted to the end and would likely snap off if this method was used… My opinion, if it comes down to needing to take the window out to save a life, screw the quartz lights. I think its an EXCELLENT method. Another consideration when specing a ladder is a bolt on tip. Im pretty sure there are several mfgs that offer a bolt on tip. If its damaged putting it through a window, just replace the tip, instead of a main. GREAT video!
Like “I Got Da Seat” says, we need to remember that a true truck is not going to have a master stream, cord reels, and lights on the end of a stick (why I love FDNY specs). With that said it is going to take quite a bit to damage the end of the stick while breaking out a window. Using the aerial device not only saves time but it also allows valuable time for other operations to go on because of the “free” OVM.
Most of small town “Trucks” operate more like a combo Engine than a true Truck, so what Craig said is true in our case as well. I have heard this was an option but never have seen it before, I must say in the end, whatever gets the job done. Great video, almost humorous seeing how the ladder crept into view to trump the dude taking the window with his tool…
I have seen this done in our department. True, Chiefs don’t like it and you have to have proper placement of the truck not to twist it.
We have some trucks that don’t have bells and whistles on the end of them and others that do. Whether or not you have them on it doesn’t matter. They can be replaced if they get messed up. That being said, don’t break them off if you don’t need to.
Having quartz lights and or a nozzle at the end of the stick aren’t all bad. There are times when you use them. This is not one of them. Just remember to place the truck in rescue mode (nozzle attached at second fly section) when you do this. I believe all of our trucks stay in this mode and you have to switch the pin if you want the truck in the elevated master stream mode (putting the nozzle at the tip of the ladder).
Great video as always.
Perfect!
Like someone else posted, I’m sure the other ladder would have opted for the same if not for a bad angle.
Stay safe.
I believe that the truck in the Houston video did have a light on the tip and like others have said it was just dangling there after it went through the window. You gotta get the job done.
Great video. The only thing that i would be cautious of is duel pane windows. I would imagine it would put a large strain on the ladder depending on the grade of the ladder, i.e a light duty aerial would probly not be a great idea to use to vent windows.
Ironically enough I ran across this one @ youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-6M0WUbGWQ
BOSTON FIRE- roxbury mass house fire 1.22.04
This method is very poular in the Boston area. Twenty years ago I saw this done at a fire in East Boston, and that was the day I knew I wanted to be a firefighter! All the comments about putting the aerial at risk instead of the jake are great.
I’ve never heard of an aerial damaged doing this besides lights being busted. Merry Christmas everyone. Be safe.
HOW IS THAT HYDRAULIC VENTILATION? ANYWAY I JUST READ THE FDNY PROCEDURE AND NOT TO BEAT A DEAD HORSE BUT THAT IS AN ACCEPTABLE METHOD. THEY EVEN GO INTO SPECIFICS ON HOW TO DO IT WITHOUT #@%$ING UP YOUR LADDER.
We have taught this technique at FDIC for four years. Two years ago we had a student do it wrong and put the tip through the wall inside the room. Chief Hoff (retired Chicago) teaches the tip at the top of the glass then lower. He says that besides not contacting the ceiling you also will not tip over any furniture in front of the window. Another technique I have seen is to push the sash between the two panes in with the tip. I vote for whatever works and is safe. Safe, well if the tip can’t take a little push then how can we expect it to hold up two brothers making a rescue?
As for stuff mounted at the tip, after my four years of teaching at FDIC and breaking the spot light off the demo ladder truck we used each of the four years NOTHING should be mounted within about 3 feet of the tip. Most ladders (definately not E-Ones) have a bolt-on “sacraficial” section (the last three or so rungs. Mount your intercom, lights, etc. behind it. Besides interferring with window removal these things seem to prohibit getting the tip close when the ladder cannot approach the building at a 90-degree angle. If you have a pinnable waterway, another thought is to mount this stuff on the master stream plate that way it stays way back when the waterway is pinned to the second section and not the tip.
In the BCFD we usually have the stick to the roof. I have seen it used to take out some windows before. We usually use a 24′ or 35′ to smash some windows out.
In regards to comment #9 has anyone looked into the light duty vs. medium or heavy duty in regards to this topic. Is there a concern with that?
Um, Derek, “hydraulic ventilation” is a joke in this case… it’s sort of “pork, the other white meat” humor. Hence, “Hydraulic Ventilation, Truck style that is!”
In regards to Don’s comment. Be careful when using ground ladders to vent- glass may slide the rails!
No manufacturer is going to tell you its ok to do this with an aerial. I would consider risk vs gain, if there is little gain then I would not risk a costly repair to the aerial. If there are lives to be gained or the safety to firefighters due to changing fire conditions then I might. Looking at the FDNY aerials they seem to be pretty simple without a lot of extras at the tip and than plan on doing this with their equipment. Looking at the Boston video from Dj of the fire in Roxbury, looks like another example of BFD firefighters putting themselves in harms way for what (with the dumpster in front of the building) appeared to be a building under renovation and risking themselves for nothing.
I learned about this method 20 odd years ago when I caught the “Truck Company Bug” as a bit of an FDNY buff.
We have a 100′ single axle 1996 Seagrave (no pump, 265ft of ground ladders)which I think is one of the best “trucks” in our area.
I think this method is great!
But in Volly world, we have a problem. If FDNY Ladder 712 damages the main, the shops send over a spare that day. If I have my guys vent the windows with the main, and it is damaged, we are out of luck for quite a long time till it gets fixed.
Yeah, mutual aid is ok, but not equipped to our standards. 🙁
So I am in favor of this method, certainly if a Brother is in trouble! , but not all of us can get away with it.
I didn’t even know this wasn’t approved in places! There is a youtube video in Boston that shows a good example… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-6M0WUbGWQ It’s used regularly around here…
I have only seen this done by big city FD’s. I tell my guys down here in South Florida to do it if they have a chance but most think I am nuts. I show them Normans Fire Officer Handbook and go over the rules for this type of operation. Tip thru top pane of glass, then lower ladder breaking sash and lower pane. Do not over extend or rotate the ladder. Beware of steel framed windows (casement). This video is the way it’s supposed to be, decisive & aggressive! FDNY truck companies are the best in the world. FYI IFSTA cautions and does not advocate the above proceedure due to potentially damaging the aerial. I will go with FDNY tactics every time! Train Hard & Be Safe…
The main thing to keep in mind is that this is not a tactic for every fire. This is one of those “Tools in the Toolbox” things that if due to manpower, fireground conditions, or FF down, etc. Therefore review the PROPER
The main thing to keep in mind is that this is not a tactic for every fire. This is one of those “Tools in the Toolbox” things that if due to manpower, fireground conditions, FF down, etc. Therefore review the PROPER way to use this tactic, teach it to your guys, and have it in your personal “toolbox” if and when you need it.
Don’t forget about the newer “hurricane” resistant glass used on alot of newer construction here in the coastal southland. These windows are ridiculous strong and could probably damage an aerial substantually, much less prove to be impossible to get through with traditional handtools-
check out the first few seconds of the white house fire, a bro trying to hammer through what appears to be substantial glass…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqPT_MBQnAQ
why are people still bashing Boston area firefighters on this site?
Drew
Is this the same FDIC Truck Company class where one of the “instructors” a D/C from WFLD has never even worked a truck and banged the main off the building?? Also, don’t you run a Tower instead of a stick?
Ray, There is no bashing of any departments going on. One person didn’t agree with Bostons actions in that video, thats all. Everyone else mentioned the video simply as another example… Boston is a hell of a department! -Jimm-
THANKS CHAPLAIN. BUT VENTILATION IS NO JOKE!
JUST KIDDING. I REALLY DON’T TAKE MYSELF TO SERIOUSLY AND I GOT IT. HAVE A GOOD ONE.
Where I work now, I’d find my ass in a sling if I did this without making an immediate no bullshit rescue- particularly a mayday- but the department where I used to work we did use this tactic from time to time… regardless I dont agree to risking the aerial for BS. If theres a danger to interior crews or theres a rescue needing to be done such as Capt Abbt, then #$%@ the truck and do what needs to be done but I can tell you right now if I throw my stick up through a window just cuz and I break it, my Chief is going to chew my ass… for good reason too. Its all about justification… is the risk to the equipment justified by the risk to us?
Tex, EVERY FIRE is a DANGER to the interior crew! Every fire that requires the aerial going to the roof, is a danger to not only the guys going to the fire apt, but to the men climbing that ladder and operating on a roof that is of unknown condition. This tactic is not that much of a danger to the aerial, you are not loading it laterally, you are loading it on the strongest axis it has! Let the Chief chew you out, if he feels that you used the aerial improperly let him know that he will be the one explaining to the deceased loved ones why they died.
This is a great Ventilation method. In fact in our(FDNY) books it explains how to do it. Newer rigs are being delivered to us with a bolt on 7′ tip Section. This way upon damage JUST the tip has to be changed not the whole section. HOWEVER, keep in mind. When putting this type of ladder to the roof, and by type I mean with the BOLT on 7′ section you should raise the ladder over 7′ above the roof line or parapet. If you are going to be using the ladder as a substantial object for a roof rope rescue you want to tie off BELOW the bolts. This area is more substantial and can ONLY be accessed if the ladder is raised high enough aboove the parapet. Little off topic but right along it as well.
As far as justification and venting with your ladder goes in my opinion
1st- these ladders are a lot tougher than you’re giving them credit for
2nd- thats the cost of doin buisness. noone ever said this stuff was cheap.
We have performed this way of ventilation @ a house fire in the past. Worked great for us and the LCC that performed it was good enough so that the windows 1.Did not break, 2. popped the entire unit out as a whole and 3. the windows were reported to have been reused when the house was fixed. It does take some skill, but when you are running light and you need to vent, great way to do it.
Jon is on the money with the info on the detachable tips. I was at rescue school the other day and the tie off recomendations for TL is different now too. New TL’s avoid the skid plates use the two L brackets supporting the bucket. Old TL’s avoid the waterway and wrap the entire bucket. When using the tip hit the top pane and lower. It works on double pane and HUD windows. Never use side to side movement because it dangerously stresses the aerial.
Yes remember that if your Department has a prepiped waterway on your stick, they won’t be thrilled by the fact that you’re piercing their truck through a window into the unknown.
It works best if nobody is in the apartment and water is somewhat on the fire, but make sure the brothers aren’t under the window when it happens.
who cares if there is a pre piped water way? if someone is in the apartment that is the best time to do this, as long as conditions permit. if you want to climb a ladder and bust your hump in the midst of battle, that’s your business. i say work smarter not harder. especially when you are shorthanded.
Dave, I think the guys in the window will know you are coming, and what LCC would vent a window like that if it could be done from the inside? Its a good thing you guys just have that 24ft portable tucked away somewhere on that rig. Maybe that 12% could be spent on gas going to details in a truck, and not truck guys getting detailed to the 12% company’s!
I dont mind this at all, I think its a great menthod. But that being said, the one concern I have is doind it so close to someone else, like in the video.
This is a valid and valuable method, the key is knowing the proper way. IFSTA and the likes miss the boat by refusing to allow it in their books, yet knowing that it will be done. Until it was replaced by a Tower, our crews were all taught to do this as described (top 2/3’s and down. The truck is just another tool, use it correctly and it can be very effective and last along time.
I had the pleasure of going to dinner with a well known FDNY Lieutenant and some aerial plant personnel (sales manager, trainer and engineer)from a large name builder. The Lt. took them to task for not sanctioning and teaching this method. Given they know that the way FDNY does it is “safe” they also recognize that side to side is far more damaging, they still choose to ignore it for liability/warranty reasons. Admittedly this is why they offer bolt on tips. Same Lt. was nearly tossed from an IFSTA conference for arguing they should put it in the books.
In the FDNY, we use this method consistently and with great success. I’ve seen it used extensively on private dwelling fires, to vent the attic or 3rd floor windows. It also gives the brothers a ladder to bail out on if the inside team gets up there before a portable does (or if it’s out of reach of a portable). That being said, sometimes the guys on the inside have to be aware of the tip of the aerial coming through the window. That’s part of why searches are done on all fours and not standing up.
My son tipped me off to the video re: venting with the aerial ladder. I saw it done many a time and it is an effective method. After taking the window, the chauffeur would ascend and anter the apartment when possible from the ladder for a search. Seeing 132 truck arriving first due brought back a flood of fond memories to me as i served as a lieutenant there from 1974 to 1988. I can only assume the other units in the area were busy, as we normally didn’t go to Parkside Avenue too often, way out of our first alarm response area. Ah, the old days of “Iron Firemen an wooden hydrants. “VENT AND YE SHALL LIVE.
When I spoke before about danger to interior crews I was talking about imminent oh shit danger… for example the conditions are going to shit and its about to flash or it did flash and my boys need it vented and perhaps an exit. Honestly for a big city department with many ladders and reserve aerials you can afford to take your truck out of service just cuz you oopsied on a routine every day fire. However I work in a moderately sized town (~125k population) where we have a single Quint and no reserve aerial. If I break the truck- even just the tip- without being able to justify it, I’m up shit creek. I dont have the luxury of throwing a reserve in service or even having a second-in truck take up some slack. We have to replace our broken aerial with a reserve engine. We are in a largely rural area and there are only two other aerials within about a 30 mile radius. Y’all understand the risk vs benefit decision I have to make? I cant necessarily risk breaking my truck (and taking it out of service for who knows how long and possibly preventing its use when theres no other choice) when I could just as easily send one of my guys up the ladder with a pike pole or halligan to take the window. It takes just a bit longer but if my boys aren’t hollerin for immediate ventilation or I dont have a victim stuck up there, its what I have to do. If I had still been in my volunteer department back in Houston where I had 7 trucks and plus a reserve where if I broke one it was no big deal, I’d not think twice to use it.
Hey TxFirefighter
what vollie dept in Houston are you mentioning?
A great video, back in the 70s it was a common sight to see L 108s stick clearing out the windows with the aerial, made for fast ventilation and made visibility better for the initial search. Two young children were saved at a job I was at because of fast ventilation, better visibility and the fact they were located rapidly and out and down the aerial and on oxygen quickly. The 11th. Division had some beat up equipment but it was from aggressive fire fighting and a lot of lives were saved by it. FDNY will always lead the pack when it comes to agressive effecient fire fighting. Proud to have been a member.
Thats all good unless certain officers are more concerned about damaging the rigs than doing whats right
tx firefighter,
as you said, you are in a medium size town with only one ladder. How many fired has that truck had to operate the aerial ladder on in the last 10 years? when it does get a job, don’t limit its capabilities. Just my opinion, but i would leave it as an option for your guys. Ventilation should be justification enough.
Hey Guys, I’ve watched the video over and over, I dont see any damage to the aerial, I bet if you were inside choking you would be glad to hear that crashing sound and feel the nice cool breathable air flowing in. Use your heads, they are not using the ladder to demolish a brick wall.
Brothers, this is a great technique that can save lives. If done correctly and with some common sense, minimal (if any) damage is sustained to the aerial tip. IFSTA may not have put this technique in their manuals but Delmar / Cengage has. This procedure is covered in depth in Chapter 12 of R.I.C.O.- Rapid Intervention Company Operations. Thanks to the FDNY folks who have been willing to share this with us.
Two words…. Great Spot!!! An excellent method when performed properly by an experienced operator.