Don’t Forget the Jacks!
Just because you can drive an engine does not mean you can operate a ladder truck…
We don’t know where it’s from, and it doesn’t really matter. Just don’t forget to set the jacks!
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Chauffeur- I thought it was missing something?
Officer- Yes Darrell, it is (shaking his head)
Yikes good thing that door was there—-
I still don’t understand how this could happen? I also like the guy standing under the ladder looking in the compartment. I guess he thinks the door will hold it up?
How can this happen? Here in Europe, all laddertrucks have security devices, so this can definately not happen. If the jacks aren’t set, the ladder will not move. If they are not set 100%, the ladder will just move as far as it is possible. Are there no such devices in american trucks?
Well from the looks of it this appears to be an older model truck that may/may not have the appropriate safety devices in place that could keep this from happening. There ARE devices on ladder trucks to allow them to be operated safely, however budgets/year of build/maintenance may hinder this.
American trucks rule!
My nine your old son’s comment(without any coaching) when asked whats wrong with this picture,” Oh!, those things that slide out from the truck aren’t there.”
Man.. that’s the ultimate lowrider. Where can I get one?
My department also has a Sutphen Aerial and it has a manual override where you can bypass the brain of the truck so you maneuver if you needed to without the jacks fully extended. This, however, is just complete stupidity.
Where was the operator? In the bucket? Where are the controls for this, the rear or the side? What an E ticket ride that was I bet.
Stay safe!
I agree with the others…. this does appear to be an older model aerial which may or may not have the safety feature on it to where the aerial will no go aloft unless the jacks are set .
Sergeant Milliner
Engine 33 ( Louisville, KY )
Er well, our older laddertruck was from 1978 (!) and had already such devices onboard… i think this is has nothing to do with the buildyear, neither with the budget (it’s even a standard in all ladders in europe, all laddertrucks must have such devices).
Apart from that, i don’t really think the american trucks have an advantage over our european trucks. but that’s another topic.
Hey, the “kickstand” is pretty beefy wouldn’t you say???
Hey, the “kickstand” is pretty beefy wouldn’t you say???
Just like another reader did, I asked my 5-year-old: “Max, what did these guys forget to do?”
“Ummm, the outriggers, Dad. Are they crazy??”
EXACT QUOTE.
It was a 1991 Sutphen (obviously) there should have been some kind of interlock for the stick not to go on the short jacked side (much less either side with no jacks out)
Darrell “Hey yut watch this yut yut.”
Hot Chick “Wow nice Stick”
Captain (from the bays running) “Outriggers numb nuts, OH SH!T” shaking head “You call the Chief I’m going home.”
Darrell “Hey Cap’ yut are the outriggers in this compartment yut yut.”
Hot Chick “Darrell, your stick always comes crashing down prematurly”
This happend in a neigboring county and a full time dept. It’s a 91 Sutphen and it did not have any interlocks and the ops man was in the bucket when it tipped over. The ladder crushed an air handler and pushed it into city hall. It was a weekly check and the operator was a senior guy who made a mistake. We all do. This one cost $140,000.
Be good, be carfull, and be smart!
and down it goes, i thought it might have been a sales guy trying to sell a used truck and showing off the type of punishment it could take
either way pretty embarrASSing
It’s a known fact, you gotta use the jacks.
Especially after Sunday breakfast……..
(or if you have a Chief in the bucket.
)
LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE. ALTHOUGH THE GUY PROBABLY SHOULDN’T BE STANDING THERE.
Hey Eric, next time you think American trucks arent superior…check the parent company that owns the manufacturer of your truck…
you will be amazed to find that an AMERICAN company owns it…
To quote the OSHKOSH website…”Brescia Antincendi International S.r.l., Oshkosh’s Italian fire truck subsidiary, is a top European name.”
I like those tiny little trucks you guys have over there, almost like real fire trucks.
All in good fun bro, stay low.
Who would have thought that forgetting to close a compartment door one day would actually help!
For a small fee I will either add or remove the name of a any Fire Dept that has been added to the photo:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/funepics/yourdeptsnamehere.jpg
They are very lucky, even luckier that they did not gain additional extension and elevation on the truck prior to rotation.
The resulting fall could have been catastrophic.
Very glad that there is no “slow walk and sad song”
Everything can be an example, be it good or bad.
Im not much on aerial ops but i think that whoever did that needs to ride a ambulance for a while
So that’s what a firetruck with hydros looks like…will it hop the front end too?!
i heard of short jacking the truck but WOW now thats really short jacking the truck…..
Ok, we do all make mistakes, but making the kinds of mistakes that get people killed in this circumstance is just ludicrous. There is NO ZERO NONE excuse for executing the maneuver you are seeing here. Mistakes are forgetting the Neutral Pump drive, opening the wrong discharge, grabbing a C02 when you need a dry chem. This regardless of career or volunteer dept is inexcusable. This is the same sort who would show up and forget to put an airpack on. PLEASE neighboring department, explain to me why a SENIOR firefighter, the coveted senior, who is suppose to she all the probies how its done, could ACCIDENTLY forget to at least set the damn jacks on the ground ON ONE SIDE. For firefighters sake, at least the ones on the side he/she intends to turn to.
PS… spelling mistakes are acceptable…
)
OH and one more thing. After looking at the pictures again and being on my soapbox, two things sprang to mind ( that 20/20 thing again)
1. It looks as if the rear axles have seperated from the frame of the vehicle which made me ask was it a mechanical failure of the apparatus or…..
2. In the Operators Manual, training on this vehicle from MFR, is it an accepted practice to swing to a certain degree off center WITHOUT jacks extended???? As I said, hindsight is 20/20, and this could be an accepted practice through the manufacturer
Safety devices are not an excuse for an error like this. As a tower ladder operator, you have to do visual walk around checks. This is the same thing that would happen if an operator was not certain on how to short jack the ladder. I am most glad the Brothers are all okay, but we can’t be dependent on safety mechanisms, we all know, we have to know our truck.
I re-read my post and I don’t think I was making excuses for the individual that did this, he really screwed the pooch. I was trying give background and to make the point that new guy or old guy this can happen when we let our guard down. We need to take even the most routine daily tasks seriously and to train like we fight. I know this dept doesn’t put the bucket up in anger much and as a result a brain fart turned into a major F up. As an aside Lt4A all the mistakes you listed could quickly become fatal.
Be good, be careful, and BE SMART!!!
yes they could jamie, but are more easily correctable. Thats all i was saying.. if your going to make a mistake, make it one you dont get bitten as hard by as this poor dept.
You can raise the aerial out of the bed to reload hose in the rear with only the rear stabilizers down, but it doesn’t appear that they did this. Rotating without the side jacks extended and lowered is not in the operators manual. Just looked at the book, we have an ’89 Sutphen.
Isn’t there an override on the turntable on Sutphen’s so you can operate without the jacks fully extended?
MAN!! We got a 1998 Sutphen and to answer the question above me there is a short jack button on the top turntable when it pressed the blue light comes on. But we do not short jack here!! It can be done but here it is not in our SOPs to do so unless given by the highest orders. But like I said “its not in our SOPs” unless big chief says so.
PVT. Young
-Macon -Bibb
um i think the roof stopped the tip not the compt door
I almost witnessed an event very similar to this. The department had raised the ladder about ten degrees and turned it to the right a few degrees in order to perform some maintenance on the ladder. It was thought to be unnecessary to extend the jacks for this small and short task. With a few captains, firefighters, and even a battalion chief watching, a lieutenant climbed up to move the ladder more to the right to give those working some more room. Needless to say, the truck started to lean very violently. Then it was found out that the outriggers could not be put out until the ladder was moved back to its resting position. Now that’s one hell of a safety device.
By the way it was an old LTI aerial platform.
Although Im not preaching about our E-one. The good thing about it is it is IMPOSSIBLE to shortjack it. Im not even sure you can MOVE the ladder until the jacks are down and the interlock is put into the ladder position.
When all the psycological stuff and the trying to figure out what happened and so on , it boils down to WHAT A DUMBASS!!!! who would do a stupid thing like that???? Did they leave thier brain home that day? If they are the driver/operator for that rig,I don’t want to ride it with them behind the wheel. If they can’t remember to put the jacks out b4 they raise and turn a 15,000lbs piece of steel, who knows what will happen going down the road. Remember people, training is for a reason and this is why!!!
Man look at that articulation on the rear axle…never heard of a rock crawling ladder truck…Hmmmm
I don’t think I can say much that hasn’t been said. But If this was the senior guy, this is no way to set an example. I hope this wasn’t standard practice for him/her and I really hope no one else at the dept. practiced the same way. Good thing no one was under the HVAC unit the went through the roof.
confuscious say.. kepp your wheels on the ground…… 9 out of 10 aint bad !
)
Thats what happens when the chiefs want to play with the new aerial.
I resemble that remark!
Stay safe and train hard…
well at least they chocked the wheels…..ooops…..maybe not.
Hope they didn’t get a call while they blocked those bay doors.
“Ghost Ride the Whip… Ghost Ride the Whip”
I bet that was the ride of the century. I dont know how there couldn’t have been damage to the frame and body after twisting the chase like that. Does anyone know how they got the truck back upright?
At least they’re still shiney side up and no serious injuries.
Stay safe all!
LOL put the jacks out and stood on em probably
When you drop the weight of the rear axles (mechanical failure), the everyday check sheet short jack (or no jack) becomes enough to upset the applecart (and the chief). Without the ballast of the rear axle, even the jacks might not have prevented the tip. If you set up the truck with the jacks properly deployed and you can’t lift the wheels clear of the ground, you might have broken spring mounts like this truck probably had. Just taking the bulge out of the tires won’t let you know of the failure till you’re writing the ‘dear chief’ letter. Checking a truck should involve checking the aerial mounting and Springs.
LTFDlt –
Can you go about briefly explaining how one would check the aerial mounting and springs?
did I hear somebody say…volunteer?
Wrong answer, full paid department
Let’s see whats on this side…
gruf ol’ boy, local….paid…. managed to hit the power lines in the station parking lot with their new stick. I do believe they fried everything electrical and then some on the truck. The…paid…a few miles north did the same thing as the subject of this article…hmmmm…sobering to think we’re all human…
Stay safe, brother.
“Hey Eric, next time you think American trucks arent superior…check the parent company that owns the manufacturer of your truck…”
=> All our former Ladder trucks are from german manufacturers, as our latest is. Last 2 were from the Metz (now Metz Aerials as part of Rosenbauer, which is a company from Austria). Our newest Ladder truck is from Iveco Magirus, featuring a total height of 30 Meters and a platform with a total carying weight of 270 kg (3 Persons). Also it features 2 cameras, one at the backside of the truck and one on the platform for the automated nozzle, a trench-rescue programm, crane-function and a computer stabilzed ladder (less swinging). All functions from the main operator stand can also be controlled from the platforms operator stand.
In europe, the most ladders are produced by Metz Aerials (Rosenbauer) and Iveco Magirus (which also owns camiva, it’s the same to be honest).
There’s been a few mentions of short-jacking, but I think the point was missed that short-jacking refers to the opposite side that you’re working on. I’m only familiar with Pierce’s, but if you’re going to work off of one side, you need to fully extend that side’s jacks. The other side can go straight down, and the safety locks (are supposed to) keep you from rotating to the wrong side. Yes, they can be overridden, but it takes two people – one at the ground, and one at the turn table.
gruf
I live in a town where the surrounding volunteer county department could kick the class five, city, full-time, paid department’s butt in a fire any day. When anything larger than a single story structure fire occurs, the volunteers get called in to help and clean up the mess that the “real” firefighters have made. Read my post about halfway down this page. That incident happened at the paid department. Just because we are volunteers doesn’t mean that we don’t know a thing or two about firefighting. I have more fire experience in my 3 years than many 10 and 15 year veterans of this paid department.
These guys are so stupid, tipping over the truck was not enough for one day, so lets stand under the collapse zone to top it off…who are these people and where did they come from?……These are the people who cause all the ridiculous rules and regulations we see in this business.
One of the things that makes this site what it is (a damn fine one to learn from) is that the volunteer/career thing has never been an issue in the year or so I’ve visited….this is the first time I’ve seen it rear it’s ugly head…lets keep it that way and focus on learning and sharing ideas.
The ladder tipped because someone didn’t follow their sop’s…..nuff said.
Dave, I could not agree more. It could have happened to anyone, anywhere. Let’s just share the info, so none of us ever end up it the same situation! -Jimm-
Two words…..”Your Fired!!!”
No, not fired! Fulltime Guy 17 year veteran. 2 tours off. 2 held in obayance for 90 days. $ 17,000 dollars in damage! Not bad for tipping a ladder. Ladder held truck up and sustained no damage! $ 800 air handler broken on roof. Very stupid but honest mistake. Hey training cut in half, manning short, runs all day and night. Mistakes happen. Nobody hurt but 18 year old truck that had no safety controls to stop this from happening. Just trying to stay afloat and provide service!
Guys, the bashing is not nessicary. I couldn’t agree with Dave more. This is for learning and seeing our mistakes, not riding on others for messing up. Stupid mistake, but they have and will happen to us, this is what can happen if you don’t watch carefully over a older units (not just towers) that probably has no safety controls on it. So let’s just watch, observe and learn. Hopefully you aren’t caught in this same situation one day.
I read a story released by the the guy doing the truck check and it’s exactly like Fireguy said above me. to add to what he posted the guy said the shift was busy and his head was some place else. Stuff happens, sometimes it’s just bigger then we like.
IC- “Truck one-ladder the building..”
Operator- “Done!!”
way outa’ line wiht the sops of our dept.
Somebody’s gotta be off thier rocker to even consider doing this. We have a ’80 pierce 85′ LTI and I wouldn’t even begin to think about moving the stick without having it stable and pinned.
At the end of the day, we should all be able to go home.
well i think they all got to go home at the end of the day, but some of them were not allowed to come back…:)
Here are some questions from a different side of this, HOW do you fix this?
I dont mean the actual repairs, but how was it up righted? What was the response? What equipment was used?
Any lessons learned from that?
Stay safe.
i would think a heavy recker would have to right the rig some how. it seems very difficult to stand something like this up
Two heavy wrecker cranes from a local tow shop uprighted it. Great lessons learned! No one hurt. SOP’s reflect no ladder usage without jacks down! Operator error! Can it happen? Did here. Lessons learned OH YEA. We wanted to share so nobody ever does it again! Feeling the love from the brotherhood. Stay Safe ALL.
Was there any damage(other than pride)?
A sling when tightened caught a ladder beam on the main section and bent it just alittle. It was bent back and tested like new by third party. Other than that it was just suspension and a door! The roof was damaged on the station but it was a roof air handler for that cost$ 800.00 so we got out lucky. The ladder absorbed the fall and was not even damaged.
That’s one good thing about an old steel ladder. I don’t think an aluminum would have quite held up…
If it’s the same as our Sutphen it has an aluminum ladder but it’s box beam construction. It provides a much more solid platform than our brand new E-one.
It is all Aluminum box construction.
Wow i’m definitely impressed with aluminum ladders then. Sutphen might want to take this picture around to prove the strength of their ladders…haha
NEW TRUCKS HAVE TECH. THAT WILL NOT LET YOU RAISE THE LADDER WITHOUT THE JACKS ON THE GROUND.
I GUESS THIS TRUCK DID NOT HAVE THAT TECH.!!!!
this is only a very minor accident compaired to what kinds of pictures you can dig up on the web. Tiped it, fixed it, get over it.
Oops.
I cant help but comment on this subject. First of all I am disappointed in the brothers on here that Laughed and made wise cracks about this deal. I don’t find any of this funny, I honestly thought I had seen every stupid picture on the internet possible. But then I read on and see that people did not get fired for this and people are calling this a mistake. Ignorance is not an excuse and should not be a defense even in a Union House. SOP’s or not this should have never been thought of, and shame on the Cheifs for not letting this person explore another career.
haha…this is why there are so many regulations in our job. This rook…hahahahahahahahaha
I agree, this is where all of the rules, reg’s, manufacturer’s requirements, etc. come from. We have a 16 yo tower and it has all of the reminders from stickers to indicator lights to confirm that the stabilizers are out. We do have the ability to short jack but it requires an overide button to be held down constantly and only allows for limited travel of the aerial. Overides being held or not, it will still stop all movements once reaching a certain point. Which ever way all of our trucks mentioned work, the main thing is that from the way it sounds, any injuries were minimal. What would have happened if the building wasn’t there or the aerial went through the roof?
Feeling the brotherhood from “tower” above maybe when you get to chief you can fire all you want for mistakes. Maybe one day there will be safeties for every every human decision we make. Hey maybe one day we will not even have to think. Discipline yes Fire NO.
Learn from it OH YES.
hey just to let u know..the door isnt holding it up..if you look at the first picture the ladder hit the edge of the roof..thats wuts holding it up…and u would think the guy would know that out riggers are required in order to operate a ladder without tipping it