We have made no secrets around here that we are not big believers in PPV, but that discussion in itself could be an entire post. This post is more about equipment, equipment readiness, and the importance of daily equipment checks. Garret Rice from Rowlett (TX) Truck 4 sent in this information of an incident that occurred while performing multi-agency, multi-company drills. During the drill another one of the agencies involved placed a PPV fan at the front door. Once the fan was in operation, the fan suffered catastrophic failure. When the fan blade disintegrated, one of the pieces of the blade broke thru the shroud and hit one of the firefighters in the arm. Fortunately, the firefighter was wearing full PPE, so he did not suffer any injuries. You can see from the photos below the pieces of blade on the bottom of the fan shroud. Upon closer investigation it appears that a bolt got loose from the handle and got sucked into the rotating fan causing the blade to come apart at full velocity. It is worth mentioning that this fan is normally stored on the outside of the rig, secured to the tailboard. Texas undergoes significant temperature swings throughout the year, so the composite blade is constantly expanding and contracting which may (or may not) have been a contributing factor.
With that being said, the importance of equipment readiness needs to be mentioned. All equipment on the rig needs to undergo a daily check, and a comprehensive weekly check at a minimum. When we are checking the equipment we should be much more concerned about the operational readiness of the equipment, then only the simple fact that the equipment is accounted for. When issues are discovered with our equipment we should take it upon ourselves to repair (or see that it gets repaired) in a timely fashion. Leaving equipment in service on the rig that is not 100% operationally ready to go can lead to disaster. Perhaps during the check, the loose bolt would have been discovered, or maybe stress cracks in the blades would have been noticed, or perhaps neither. This could have been a total fluke, or maybe it could have been prevented, we are not trying to point a finger. Either way there is a great learning opportunity here. Equipment stored outside the rig is certainly more subject to failure due to being exposed to the elements. We need to make sure that we are throughly checking all of our equipment all of the time!
this is a FANtastic example of why PPV is for the birds…as if the motor on these fans isn’t loud enough to block almost all fire ground communication, now the fans are exploding on the fire ground. Hydraulic ventilation never injures anyone and is much more efficient in ventilating the fire room quickly and requires no additional personnel, just the ones who already have the nozzle in their hands.
This is not “proof” that PPV is dangerous any more than a chain or rotary saw failure is evidence that vertical ventilation is dangerous. It is proof that mechanical equipment can fail and that equipment inspection and maintenance is essential to safe and effective firefighting.
I do not believe that PPV is a silver bullet (or that any other fireground tactic is a universal solution). However, determining that a tactic is effective, safe, ineffective, or unsafe should be on the basis of scientific and operational evidence.
Ed,
I recognize your experience and expertise in the area of 3D Firefighting and ventilation-controlled fire behavior. That being said, I think we can all recognize that Jimm was using a play on words to create a humorous and catchy headline in a slightly cynical manner…
The humor might be a little more acceptable if you put it in the context of a discussion at the kitchen table with a senior guy saying, “See, I told you PPV is dangerous… Now even the fan is attacking us!” (Jimm really just beat D-Man to the sarcastic punch today.) I often think of this site and other similar sites as big kitchen tables where lessons are passed on by senior, experienced firefighters, often through the use of anecdotes and humor. When you filter all that out, there are some really excellent fireground lessons and solutions imparted on junior or less experienced members.
We all know that mechanical failures can occur with any piece of equipment. The point of this post is that we need to be vigilant in our equipment checks and focus on operational readiness, regardless of the tactics your department chooses to employ.
Be safe.
I have to agree with Chief Hartin, PPA is not in and of itself dangerous! I believe that crawling through zero viability smoke is considerably more dangerous.PPA when done correctly and trained upon regularly is a sound tactic. This is an example of equipment failure, whether through lack of proper maintenance or manufacturing error, do not blame a tactic that has been proven to work well on many fires for this failure. We use this tactic all the time and have found it safer and more effective than verticle ventilation for our department.
Re the equipment side of PPV:
1) The positional adjustment of a fan while in use puts a huge gyroscopic load on the blade. This was/is? believed to contribute to fan blade failure, if not instantly perhaps at another call in the not too distant future.
Also when these fans started to show up, they didn’t appear to have been engineered for the task but…adapted.
2) Some of our trucks have moved to electric PPV fans. Way better. Quieter, good rpm and no CO. My truck still has the gas powered version. You have to be quite some distance away to even think of using your radio when that sucker is in operation. What was that you say? “Mayday?” 😉
Re PPV in general:
– To to reduce temps and assist with a difficult fire attack you had better be damn confident with your sizeup (fire origin, building layout) or….
….DON’T DO IT!
I would say most of the time we don’t have that info do we?
As it is now we generally use PPV to assist with the tasks that come later during a call.
“We have made no secrets around here that we are not big believers in PPV…”
Jimm, what you’re saying is that…you’re not a…fan?
Sorry and Merry Christmas!!!
Fits
First, this is a common problem in gas fans with all their vibration. I just replaced an entire cylinder/crankcase assembly because a muffler shroud bolt fell down into the magnetic induction system and slammed around until it ripped part of the induction coil off the cylinder=/
FitSsikS, if your intertested you can actually find the extended history of PPV from it’s birth in hot air balloning and subsequent adaptation. http://www.balloonlife.com/publications/balloon_life/9801/0110/winds0110.pdf Enjopy!
And finally ( I know this isn’t what we are discussing but) taking a rich (black)smoke mixture and moving it into it’s explosive range is definetly bad news but is often the story when we hear about PPV related injury.
We had the same thing happen with a brand new fan a couple of years ago. The blades fell apart and tore through the sheet metal shroud. Thankfully nobody got hurt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL0auzmkokQ&feature=related
This video is abotu the evolution NOT the fan.
PPV is not the answer. Staffing, Efficiency, Recognizing deteriorating conditions and Experience are the answers.
I think every firefighter in the US should receive $1,000,000 every Christmas. (I just want to see what the argument against this will be.) That being said, unless you have the manpower and PRACTICE positive pressure attack, or are dealing with burnt food or a one room fire, leave that effing thing on the truck. That’s my opinion. But, staying on topic…if you have one of these useless pieces of shit, be careful. That’s all they’re saying. Happy Non-Denominational Holidays everybody, unless you do not celebrate any holidays, in which case, just have a nice day. This does not imply any specific race, creed, or religion. (Did I cover everything?)
We don’t have $1,000,000 per firefighter in my response area…Merry Festivas DMan
what do you mean the $1,000,000 is in $100 bills, how will I ever break those. Can I have it in $20 bills, they are easier to cash???
ok….we just finished the airing of the grievances, now we are moving on to the Feats of Strength.
I GOT A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH YOU PEOPLE!!!!!
PPV is a tool and I agree for the untrained and uninformed it is not the game to play. However, there are times and indications that it is the right tool to use if you know what you are doing, understand its limitations, and know where the fire is. We have buried three in my region in the last three years doing exterior vent operations or training, and at least a couple were put in the Parkland burn unit, haven’t lost any not heard of injuries to PPV related events in the same time period. They are all tools, know your job and know when to pull it out and when to put it away. Lund University in Sweden and the Austin, Texas Fire Department in conjunction with the University of Texas did research into PPV and CAD studies of the dynamics of three a dimensional fire event. One thing interesting was that a fire that PPV would cause to flash would flash the same with just an open door, only 45 seconds to a minute later. I would rather turn in the fan, wait 15-20 seconds and if it flashes let it do so without my people inside.
Ok so I am not a huge fan of PPV, that being said it is a tool not like any other we have. It will either make you a hero or a huge zero in fifteen seconds. RSFDNY you posted PPV gone wrong so here is PPV gone right.. Safe and happy new year all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA8DTbEp3ak&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=_Y4XTxzk73w
Same Fire Department………
At the 7 minute mark in this video you will see and HEAR the fan in operation. Now go back and watch the video you posted. I don’t hear anything except a phone ringing. I don’t beleive they used PPV on that fire.
Regardless brother…. 25 years and I’ve never used it. Maybe I’m tainted and old…..I just dont trust it. I’m sure there are a hundred reasons to use it and a hundred not to. I’m sure it has its place.
Peace
RSFDNY
RSFDNY…30 years on the job and I still dont like it.
mcduff…in the time it would take to get the fan, set it up, then “wait 15-20 seconds to see if it flashes”…you could probably have a line strecthed, isolated the fire and probably have a knock down or at least water on the fire, AND…here’s the part I like..SEARCHED FOR OCCUPANTS/VICTIMS.
I work on a Department that has used PPV for a long time, every Truck and outlying Engine Company is equipped with gas fans. I feel like my Dept has been really lucky that nobody has been seriously hurt using PPV. Since going from the Engine to the Truck I have noticed that there isn’t a lot of thought by some members who place these fans in service. Last shift at a 2 story apartment fire the fan was called for after the fire was knocked down, moments later the kitchen caught fire again and started to weaken and already weak lightweight floor truss. If this wasn’t caught by a member outside the crews working on the 2nd floor could have been injured.
PPV can be very dangerous when used incorrectly. But, with reduced staffing, sometimes its the best we’re gonna get. Its even worse that guys are charging into burning structures that are in pre-flashover conditions, hot charged smoke to the floor….but they are afraid to get on the roof because its lightweight construction and the fire has been burning more than five minutes. I was taught that crap and it almost killed me. Flashover is ten times more dangerous than truss collapse! Truss collapse matters most in open truss construction areas like garages. Any experienced firefighter can go to a roof and at least make an assessment whether or not its safe to cut. Just assuming its not safe is much more dangerous than actually doing it. Ventilation is one of the single most important things we can do…even half ass horizontal ventilation without PPV is better than hoping you wont get caught in a flashover. First they take away our staffing, then they scare everyone from the roof and tell us to charge in anyway…not this guy!
What is the problem with just opening up a building properly and letting it breathe? Vertical, horizontal, hydraulic…..all three work, and they work really, really well. Monkeying around with a fan, and dumping 15,000cfm of fresh air into a building is just, well, stupid. I’d rather have a really efficient crew that can get an appropriate line into service and vent a building properly than a stupid gimmick that’s billed to be the best thing ever.
Speed and water wins every time.
Assessing the roof to see if vertical ventilation can be performed safely is a vital function of a truck company. If the structure is deemed unsafe to actually get on to cut, there is always the tactic of using the platform or straight stick to cut off of for ventilation. It may not be the easiest or quickest but may be the best thing for the overall operation.
Had 2 fires in one day right before Christmas and on one the PPV fan worked quite well. Used it to clear smoke out of a large house (the fire was in the garage, extinguished, nothing but smoke in the house). It worked. However on the 2nd fire, it would have hurt somebody to use it. Fire was in a back kitchen, and due to the HEAVY smoke the fire was in the bedroom right before the kitchen. We couldn’t see the fire in the bedroom. If the fan had been started it would have flashed that bedroom trapping us in the burning kitchen. One of the guys vented the roof, fire in the bedroom caught up and smoke cleared and we were able to hit both areas safely. PPV is all about recognizing the conditions and when to and not to use it. To me, I’d rather have a saw over a super powered leaf blower any day.
I’ve been listening to the comments here and other other sites about similar topics and I am seeing a reoccurring theme. I’ve been in the fire service for over thirty years and have seen tools and tactics fall in and out of favor often.
there is an old saying that goes “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.” Meaning simply slow down and do a proper size up. This job is about making the right choices; at the right time. Educate yourself; there is no such thing as enough education. Form your opinions on what you know and can prove not what you have heard others tout as being gospel.
Don’t confuse training and education as being the same thing. They can be, but education; seeking higher learning is more valuable than repeating the same drills over and over. One needs to know why they are doing the drill to master it.
PPV is a tool; not necessarily a tactic. Knowing how and when to use it will make this and any other tool safe for us to use. Good Luck and work safe.
RSFDNY see that video I posited was the house fire after they worked out the bugs in the one you posted!! Just kidding, I use both in my size up class and the same thing always comes up. One is how the fan sitting on side A while the thing is ripping not spontaneously combust and two what the hell are they thinking when they pull it with a fully involved house fire.. Got to love the telltale policy/procedure nazi, pull the fan every time and put on side A RSFDNY I am with ya I am not a fan of the fan LoL excuse the pun, But if you know how and when to use it god bless. Happy new year brother be safe
I can agree that PPA is another tool to be applied under very correct circumstances however when I took the class it was taught as a “this way, every time, regardless” tactic. Really?…to be used on car fires and dumpster fires? What a bunch of dumbasses. That is the ignorance that will kill firemen and civilians.
My class really showed how horrible vertical vent was and how great PPA was. It seems to me that if we can direct all that bad stuff up and away from the survival space on the floor instead of horizontally and potentially across somebody then we will always be better off. I tried to have my instructors let me punch a roof hole on our last evolution and they wouldn’t allow it, must have known in their hearts that it would work better.
Nothing different about PPA than any other thing we do. Put garbage in, get garbage out. Size up is paramount, execute the right tactics for the situation, be successful. We have gotten so scared of vertical ventilation and lightweight trusses in the fire service but we still seem to be fine putting people beneath them. It doesn’t make sense to me. The fire service is very circular. This is a fad tactic that will likely fade off and eventually we will get back to cutting holes in the roof, I hope.
ATTENDED MY FIRST PPV CLASS… FAN BEFORE ATTACK…. IN 1986.GREAT CLASS, GOOD INFO..HAS ITS PLACE IN OUR FIRE SERCICE.. BUT NOT THE PANACEA SOME WOULD PREACH!
A GREAT TOOL UNDER TO RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES… COMBINED WITH A LACK OF TRAINING… LIKE MANY OTHER THINGS IN OUR BIZ… IT WILL KILL FF’S
Positive Pressure Ventilation is different than Positive Pressure Attack. PPV is for exhausting residual smoke after a fire and PPA is for pressurizing a building with a known fire location and an EXHAUST! Do not place yourself between the fire and exhaust and you won’t get burned (figuratively and literally speaking). Of course you cannot rely on using ppa every time, it’s just another tool in the box. How can someone say that it’s for the birds? Those kind of people are closed minded and possibly don’t understand the physics that come into play. Create the exhaust first then place the fan into operation. Replacing bad air with good, clean, cooler air will help to put the fire out and to remove the hazard of flash over. I know I have trained on this and believe in this. Be a master of your craft and never stop learning.
First off, very glad to hear that no one was hurt by the fan failure. There has been some very interesting discussion/debate on the use of PPV and PPA. As some of you have mentioned, these tools/tactics are not and should never be taught as the answer to all firefighting circumstances. This is no different from any other tool in a Firefighter’s arsenal. They are to be used in the correct situation. However, it’s important to keep in mind that the use of PPV and PPA have had countless success stories when used properly. This link provides one such recent story.
http://firenews.net/2979/firefighters-rescue-child-from-burning-home/
Unfortunately, the article doesn’t touch on the use of PPA during the scene. But in some discussion with the Firefighters that were actually present at the fire, they mention PPA being the variable that saved the girl’s life (you can see a blower in the background of one of the pictures). PPV/PPA may not be everyone’s specialty, but it has proved it’s usefulness in the firefighting community time and time again; there is absolutely no refuting that. If any of you are searching for PPV/PPA training, here is a site that I came accross which provides some leading training and educational material. Like in the Rocky Mount Fire Department’s case, it may save a life some day!
http://positivepressuretraining.com/
Be safe and God Bless!