Lieutenant Randy Hunter from Bluffton (SC) Twp Fire District sent in these photos of an interesting structure in their area. The photos were actually taken by Captain Derek Church also with Bluffton. From the outside the building originally appears to be multiple separate occupancies. However, a look on the inside tells a different story.
Think about how this building would react with fire inside (once occupied.) What if the building did have eight or more separate occupancies? An averaged sized fire in one occupancy would (eventually) give you smoke showing from one particular area of the building, it may lead you to believe: little (or average) size store + little smoke= little fire. Now consider the same amount of smoke showing from this structure- one large occupancy. Consider the amount of fire it would take for this thing to auto vent. A little smoke showing from such a large open area structure could be very misleading: large size store + little smoke= BIG fire.
34 thoughts on “View from the Inside”
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment.
We have just recently had the same type of construction in a new complex erected in our town. The buildings look virtually identical both inside and out to the ones pictured here. A few more interesting things we found in ours are the stairs to access the second floor are at the two end occupancies along what would be the B and D side walls and two right in the center next to the elevator shafts. the second floor appears to be two large open spaces seperated down the middle by the elevator shafts. Somewhere that you think would have a stairway in each unit isn’t the case. We also inspected the roof through the access hatch and found a rubber roof, and all of the decorative work theat makes the parapet and front wall so nice to look at from the street is all styrofoam lag screwed to the wall with large washers. We were wondering if there was any kind of fire resistance rating to the stuff. If it is involved in fire, will it burn or will it melt? if anyone knows please post it.
Another thought we had in reference to the styrofoam material is, if it does burn, will it show as an impressive heavily involved building fire on arrival but once extinguished turn out to be an outside fire that spread to the wall covering. It’s just one more thing to think about when making the decision for extra alarms or not. Things may not always be what they seem on arrival,and think of the overhaul work involved with stripping all of that stuff off.
I would be more concerned with those lolly pop stick columns supporting those girders! You could get those to bend with a bic lighter! How some engineer signed off on that is beyond comprehension. Make sure you can put this info in a pre-plan, otherwise we will have another LODD.
Stay Safe
Forgot to add this. A good way to determine building continuity in my experience is to look at the windows, if they line up very good chance they were all apart of the same architects plan, those guys like straight lines. Never trust the parapet of a roof as an indicator, this is a good example. Also look for different color/textured brick, stucco is a design/aesthetic component so its never reliable.
Going with Jon on this one. You might as well put tooth picks up to hold those girders. Using such weak supports, that place is basically holding itself up as those “supports” aren’t doing much accept getting in the way. Not a safe place.
Ah no worries guys…..it’s sprinklered.
Of course over the coming years various tenants will add layers of drop ceilings here and there.
Ok, start worrying again.
On a serious note, I would be interested to know if this structure conforms to local bylaws and if so is it in a particular category.
It also appears, comparing the interior to exterior pics, that the second floor windows may just be aesthetic, and not even exist on the interior. My assumtion here is based on the interior appearing to have a pitched roof, and it looks like the wall in the pic is Side A (or, Side 1 if you’re in NYC!)
Be safe Brothers.
Chris
I also was compairing th pictures and the windows. They son’t look like they are true windows. Also the thought about the foam parapet. I don’t know that there is much fire rating to them at all. I you remember the fire at the Monte Carlo this summer in Las Vegas, all the pictures and video showed a lot of the foam melting off and causing secondary fires on that structure. The link below explains how this foam building materials contributed to the advanced fire spread to the structure. So my thoughts, a comercial fire, involving a material that will definately contribute to the fire spread, use big lines and be ready for big drops of flamming material comming down. I think operating from the street or entering the structure from the “c” side would be safest operating procedures.
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/hotels/2008-01-28-monte-carlo-roof-fire_N.htm
I do agree with you guys on the “tooth pick” supports but did you guys also notice the sprinklers running about the steel girders? And since this is located in a warm area it is most likely a wet system. The sprinklers are going to keep those supports cool to were they wont fail unless a lot of heat for a long period of time of course.
Truck 4- The construction is not complete. They will divide up that space and create many separate occupancies. (Double 5/8″ sheetrock walls) My guess is that those flimsy columns will be hidden in a partition wall that separates two occupancies. When the drop ceilings go in, the sprinkler heads should be altered and lowered to the finished side of the stores ceilings. Any possible future fire of consequence should be contained to a small area by the sprinkler systems. I think the foam stucco siding catching fire would occur from an outside source- The a/c on the roof overheating, or a rubbish fire that communicates to the ‘c’ side where the dumpsters will be. Just my 2 cents.
the fact that the area is getting divided is a slight advantage because judging on the size of the inside, the potential fireload that could exist in an open room like the unfinished room up there is quite large. now with the walls going into place, you are somewhat limiting your fire load because if just one room goes off, and going on that the sprinklers will do their job, would help keep the fire just to that single occupancy (not to mention the double 5/8″ sheetrock helping to contain the fire just to that occupancy)
the one thing that i believe should also be adressed is the concern of the future drop cielings failing under the heat of a potential fire in an occupancy, we all know that drop cielings are there just to cover up the ugly mess of endless sets of wires, conduit, and duct work. I would really worry more about the drop cieling going before the support beams would just for the fact that the heat is going to rise and affect the drop cieling more quickly. Not to mention the steal support beam will likely be covered by a partition wall makeing it harder for fire to directly hit the steal beam and cause it fail
in my first due we have been seeing a rise in commerical construction as of lately and we actually have a structure very similar to this and if there is any report of a fire it gets dispatched as a high occupancy structure which brings in more companies then just a normal residential fire, so in the event that there is a smoke condition and it proves to be a bigger fire then the smoke reads, we are prepared with more rigs and more guys to assist.
just my 2 cents!
another topic i forgot/wanted to touch on was the fact that since this is type 2 construction, the roof is usually covered with a combination of asphault, felt paper, and foam insulation to create a seal from the elements. if a fire burns through the drop cieling from below there is nothing there to protect the bare steal from conductung heat. with the transfer of heat from the fire to the unconvered metal, youll get conduction from the metal to the roof materials and it could possibly transfer enough heat to start a fire in one of the many combination levels of asphault, paper, and foam and it could keep burning even after you put out the main body of fire. so if do have a fire in a building like this, its Imperative got us to get up there to check for extension. we had a fire in my first due about a two years ago in a car dealership that was under renovation. the structure had similar type building constructon and every thing, as construction crews were using cutting torches to dismantle the steel, the layers of roof material still on the building caught fire. after we got water on the contents that were buring, we pulled down the drop cielings and cut the roof to make sure we didnt have any more extension
and my last point is about the HVAC units on the roof, although they arent pictured here, i would assume the building will eventually house some type of HVAC system. with this being said, if there is a fire in a HVAC unit, be aware of the possiblity for extension into the roof via conduction and radiant heat transfer methods. plus, dont forget to firgure out what kind of HVAC, whether its gas or eletricty, just know how properly shut down the unit and to make sure its a safe way as well, those electric HVAC units run at a very high voltage, so just be careful in how you deal with the utilities, im sure it doesnt feel to good to get a jolt of some pretty serious voltage!
stay safe brothers
-mike
Mike, what do you say we cut the Q decking with? Knowing what I know about this building, I see no natural ventilation points on the roof i.e. skylights. Besides ripping an HVAC unit off of a plenum how you supposed we do this? These buildings are garbage, 99.9% of the time the only life hazard is us.
I would agree there are no natural vent points on this roof. Also, though do you think this flimsy building is even going to support an HVAC unit? I mean if the interior picture is showing the ceiling (I.E. the roof on the outside) there really isn’t much there as far as support, I can see the whole roof buckling in.
Truck4, thanks for the link to the Monte Carlo fire, I honestly never heard or saw anything about this fire but looks pretty much like what I was thinking of.
Serge, I don’t know about the sprinklers, the pipe hangers are already connected to the uppermost roof beams (the ones parraleling the front wall) and they are high up. The pendants are also pointing up so I’m thinking they are going to protect the void space between the drop ceiling and the roof supports. Depending on the size of the occupancies (if in fact this building does get cut up into individual small occupancies) they may only need the wall mount style pendant to cover the entire floor space.
As far as the ventilation concerns go, if this place is in fact only a single story building, this is an easy PPV operation. A door in the front and a door in the rear, doesn’t get much easier than that.
That is, IF they do install a drop ceiling and further compartmentize this building…
We’ve got a handful of these places that have a great Main Street “row” appearance from the outside, but are really a single occupancy thrift or dollar store with a truly zen-like (or maybe its fung shui?) “post-modern warehouse” interior finish. No party walls, no drop ceilings, just concrete floors, steel bar joists, and a Q-deck or styrofoam panelized roof. Hell, even the exterior walls of these joints are now non-structural styrofoam panels that come prefabbed with the gypsum already glued on the interior face. And before you compare my notes to the pics, I’m not just ranting about this particular building… I call them “Little Box Stores”.
I gotta agree with Jon that this is a disposable building and unless Paco or little Billy are trapped inside I’m not going to commit my crew inside for much more than an incipient can job. Set up the tower ladder, deluge set, and blitzfires and order pizza. Call me a pu$$y if ya want, but I’ve stood at attention to salute more than enough Brothers we’ve lost in taxpayers, I pray not to do so on my own Main Street.
Be safe Brothers,
Chris
Jon, I hate to bash some one for their comments on sites like this one, but it wasn’t too long ago that you took a bunch of heat from some of the guys here about your outlook of buildings being “garbage” (Sac City roof bail out). I think we can all agree that buildings are surely not constructed the way they used to be, but is this the outlook you have towards someone’s property each time you go to a fire? If you just assume that these places are garbage why do you bother doing the job? You just got done telling everyone how aggressive you are and how you would follow the Capt. on his VES adventure. If there ever was a building that we could classify as “garbage” and didn’t warrant us getting hurt or killed over, that house was the one!
just my opinion, but I think the determination of wether or not we operate in or on a building is made by well trained officers, experienced firefighters, pre-plans and the existing conditions presented to us upon arrival, not by new construction methods. We all know that buildings are being built to some pretty lame standards that never take fire conditions into account, but we still have, to a certain extent, try to do our job.
Back to the conversation.
I really wish I could see a few more pictures of this building. Looking at the structural iron, I’d be willing to bet that roof isn’t half what you guys think it is. The purlins that are on top of the long span girders are more than likely Z purlins. The white stuff you’re seeing on the underside of the roof is rolled blanket insulation. I can’t prove it, but I’d almost bet that roof surface is nothing more than steel roof sheeting of whatever color. I’ve never(yet) been on a jobsite where we put decking down over purlins. I’ve thrown alot of decking down onto structural iron and bar joist, but not purlins. Those columns that everyones speaking about are carrying a little more than you think. If you look closely at the interior shot, there is a splice in the girder on the left and right side of the column. Most of the time on a small pre-engineered building like this one, the long span girders are lightweight members. Sometimes the web and flanges of the members are as thin as 1/4″. Purlins are even thinner. Somebody mentioned about an HVAC unit on the roof… I’m not saying it isn’t possible, but I don’t see any roof framing that looks heavy enough, or is framed out for a HVAC plenum. Once again, I wish we had a couple more pictures to see. I think I would be more concerned with how the back door is going to be fortified. Just one ironworker/firefighters opinion.
I forgot one thing, the A side or side 1, whatever you want to call it, may be a Dryvit exterior finish. I’ll look and see if I can find some info and a link.
If anyone is interested, I found some details on how an exterior cladding system like dryvit/EIFS is installed.
http://www.stocorp.com/allweb.nsf/homeform
You’ll have to look under the details section. The dryvit website has some info on thier products at http://www.dryvit.com.
To …., a building that is believed to be occupied is not ‘garbage’, a fast food restaurant in the middle of the day that is in the developed stage of fire IS garbage, going after life is not the same as going after property. Do not worry, the residents of my area are more than safe, they are for some strange reason not burning a thing! Where I work its 100% occupied usually every hour of the day, so life is always paramount.
Are the 2nd floor windows a false facade?
This building has been empty for quit sometime and there is no plans right now to do anything with it. If you want I can get some more pictures and submit them.
Well done El-TEE!!!!
Could you imagine the overtime that it would cost to inspect this place…that is if were here in Motown.
Stay Safe,
MT
“Are the 2nd floor windows a false facade?”- 912
yes, i believe so…
some TALL parapets on this building… as an architecture student/ Volunteer FF… i’d LOVE to have a word with that architect… about everything
Don’t blame the architect, blame the planning board!
I’ve just been out hovering over Bluffton 😉 and you guys have a s@#$ load of these buildings in your small community! (Is this why they remain empty for so long?)
The building in question:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/funepics/06-12-200811-51-58AM-1.png
I would be interested in seeing how “carved up” these building become and to what degree interior alterations have been allowed.
Here are some neighbouring buildings with the original subject structure shown in the bottom right corner (X).
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/funepics/06-12-200811-53-44AM.png
If they are occupied, how have they (the interiors) been modified?
Excellent pics. This brings up a good point for the guy on the roof. You go up to the roof and see something like this, a large roof that is about 2-300 feet in length what is the first thing you notice? For me its the obvious lack of firestopping. This should be an immediate heads up to the IC so they know they are dealing with a huge uncompartmented space and tactics should be changed accordingly.
Wow. Not much there accept for a…well…flat roof. The roof man better have his eyes open and better relay this info to the IC or else it could turn for the worse. Absolutely no fire stopping on those roofs like Jon said.
Many people have voiced concerns about the support columns for this building, however based on appearance, they seem adequate for the current structure. The primary steel frame of the building is quite substantial for the roof structure that is installed. Also consider that this structure is located in South Carolina, which does not receive too much snow, therefore there should not be many applied loads to the roof except for HVAC(if installed). The columns that you see are only supplemental support for the roof, which in Civil Engineering, usually requires a safety factor of 2, or the structure can hold twice of its design load. Also these columns are only designed for an axial load, meaning directly along its vertical axis. Imagine rolling up a sheet of paper standing it up and pushing down on it. It can hold a substantial load so long as it isn’t compromised. Lastly notice the sprinklers. As we all know, they’re designed to “fail” (flow water) at 155 F. Steel can hold half of its design load up until about 600-700 F. This means the chance of the columns buckling are very low so long as the sprinklers activate. I’m currently studying engineering, and assure you I’m not just throwing out theories for you to read. This structure, as it stands appears safe. I do agree with you that fire barriers should be installed as well as passive smoke barriers, which are architectural drops in the ceiling to prevent smoke and hot gases from moving freely throughout the whole building. Furthermore as with all modern construction, the building is designed to allow safe egress in a fire condition, not for safe conditions to fight fires.
Fire departments need to do agressive preplans of new structures to assure first in companies are aware of occupancy layouts. A good idea is to become involved in the plan approval process with your local building officials. My experienc with this type of structure is that they will need notification devices in each seperate section of the building once it has been completly divided. There is a sprinkler system in this structure which should under normal conditions slow or control fire spread. Being involved in the planning of these buildings assures that the sprinkler system will be adequate based on fire load and type of occupancy.
Another consideration is that these structures should be inspected on an annual basis to check for changes in occupancy and hazard level.
Finally, if you see heavy smoke or this building has self vented, knowing that it is a sprinklered monitored building, use your head before putting people on the inside for attack!! Fight fire safe and smart,know your first in district and any structures you may be first in on.
Be Safe
FPE, you couldn’t have said it any better. There are many stringent design standards that an engineer must conform to. Not only that, but plans must reviewed throughly by other structural engineers and building inspectors as well as a plethora of building codes to adhere to. A professional engineer earns his title through years of study and experience. They don’t just let anyone design these buildings lol 🙂
This is the best place to use ppa/ppv. You simply put a fan at the front door of the occupancies on either side of the fire-without a vent opening. You then use the fan at the front door of the fire occupancy, open the back door, the fan lets you walk right up to the fire and put it out. The fans pressurizing the on both sides of the fire keep the fire from spreading.
Along the same lines, I’ve seen parking garages that look like that from the street too. Not a big deal if you know your area, but something to think about….
When it comes to buildings, the number of different types of structures that exist around the world is mind-boggling. From grass huts in the tropics and igloos in the Arctic to skyscrapers in the big city and single-family homes in the suburbs, it seems like there’s a building to suit every environment and purpose. https://vampcolorado.us