Billy Farrell from Lewiston (ME) Engine Company 5 sent in these photos of an interesting building in his area. The structure is a three story wood frame multifamily dwelling with a flat roof. From the front of the building nothing seems worth discussing, however a view from the C side of the building shows something different.
The building is actually a “U” shaped building which creates a potential hazard during roof operations. The shape of the building creates a void in the middle of the building, that when obscured by smoke, could increase the potential for a member operating on the roof to fall. Obviously, this would not be a problem if the members of the roof team are simply paying attention and sounding while they travel across the roof.
A simple 360 by one of the crews would reveal this hazard early in the operation. Whenever a building is determined to be “U” or “H” shaped, this information should be shared with the other crews operating on scene, particularly the truck company. This style building is quite common. Buildings are sometimes designed with a “H” or “U” shape to increase the amount of windows and daylight available to each occupancy.
Some shots from above:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e193/funepics/Lewiston.jpg
also creates a potential hazard for companies conducting interior operations. Would be easy to get lost if you ran into an exterior wall in the middle of the building because you didn’t know that the building had a U shape. Important for command to relay info like that when they do their 360 size up
Size up size up size up!
nice catch guys
There looks to be no access for the truck company and it would take some acrobatics to place a sufficient number of ground ladders in a short amount of time.
This makes my point to the “Well, I saw 3 sides on the way in” crowd. YOU HAVE TO SIZE UP ALL 4 SIDES.
How many pictures can you take of a building or door that is not what it seems???? Unless I work for your city, at your station and make a run a that building, and remember the address it doesnt fucking matter!!! Size it up, weigh your options, make a calculated decision and do something! This website is starting to suck! Ideas for tool/apparatus/gear modifications, training ideas or learnable war stories are what is worth a shit! Hey, one time I was with this hot ass chick, but upon further inspection she wasnt what she seemed, turned out to be a tranny…Watch out!…dont get fooled next time…..If you see that chick run away……..Thats basically what all these pics of stupid builidings are.
Really, you don´t think it is worth a shit? Any info that gets people thinking or puts a small piece of ¨what if¨ in the back of their heads is worth its weight in gold. The specific building may not apply to you or your department, but not everything is going to. Granted, there is a certain amount of bullshit theory in anything that goes around but if it saves a persons life or teaches somebody something then is it really a waste? I think that most of my fellow brothers and sisters agree (ultra pc) that if out of all the thousands of things you learn as a firefighter only one of them ever saves your life or your friends life it was worth it. I´m sure there will be plenty of other reponses that ring the same bell, but it hit home for me since I have had one of these little tid bits cover my ass. In my opinion ¨whatever,¨ you have the wrong attitude and I hope it doesn´t end up costing you or your family in the end because you discounted something as insignificant.
Whatever,
If you don’t like the site, move on. Its that simple. Or you could do what you will probably do and stick around and get everyone riled up. If that is the case, then good job! You won! Which is what I am sure it is all about, YOU…
“Whatever”, you’re obviously still upset about the tranny incident.
And here I was thinking you were an expert on things* that suck.
*In your opinion, this website.
(Apologies to Admin for feeding the trolls) 😉
Building photos from areas that you do not respond to are useless? Really? It shows what the current trends in construction is and stuff to look for no matter where you live or work.. Thats like saying we’ll figure it out when we get there, don’t go out in your district and look around!
By the way as far as this building goes bet its Light-weight wood frame too?? Maybe TGI floors at the minimum…
Google’s Street View:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Lewiston++ME&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=27.538611,56.513672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Lewiston,+Androscoggin,+Maine,+United+States&ll=44.105575,-70.211067&spn=0.000424,0.002747&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=44.105561,-70.211372&panoid=GEzZ5gX8P3LLkn0xnR6pwA&cbp=12,122.8,,0,-12.14
Dear whatever,
I am impressed with your proffesionalism This building could be anywhere come on brother get a life and bitch someplace else some of us want to learn and have educated conversations something you seem to be unable to do! Are you a cop?
Stay safe boyz
“whatever” I wish you would leave your name. That would give us a name to go with some understanding as to why we read of the next LODD being you. Take this article for what it’s worth, another example of why a 360 is not only important, but vital. If you don’t think pictures and visuals help, walk around blindfolded for just a short period of time. I for one am thankful for these articles and all of the great comments that arise. My guess is that you are a young tailboard guy with no experience, never been disoriented in a structure, probably never been on a roof. All of these are lessons that can be discussed simply from looking at these two pictures. Use EVERY opportunity available for training! Thanks to everyone else for some great stuff.
Ummmm…… If you think this site sucks, dont go on it. Pretty simple. Im not that smart, so Im going to keep checking it for useful stuff that might help me out at some point…. …awesome attitude “whatever”…..
Just ignore him, guys, he’ll go away. He’s obviously got this firefighting stuff all figured out. MAN!! I WISH HE WAS MY DAD!
Some other points:
1. Where can the ladder company be spotted so as to avoid the wires?
2. Will a 35′ portable ladder reach the roof? Does your department have access to longer portable ladders? It seems that 45′ and 50′ Bangor ladders have gone the way of the DoDo bird.
3. If smoke conditions prevent adequate visibility on a roof…CRAWL! This will prevent crawling off into a shaft. Push the saw ahead of you…better the saw should fall off into the hole instead of you!
4. Getting a 360 degree view is necessary but not sufficient…you must get a report from the roof ASAP at multiple dwellings. It is entirely possible that the air shaft is entirely closed and not visible from the rear. Occupants may be hanging from windows in the shaft or fire may be venting into the shaft and auto-exposing the other apartments.
5. Buildings are often irregular in outline at the rear and often times lack parapet walls. If it’s necessary to traverse the width of the building it is often safer to do so at the front.
6. Note that the building is built into a grade and appears to be 3 stories in the front and 4 in the rear. It is essential that members use a common nomenclature for identifying what floor they are operating on. For example if a member arriving at the rear reports a victim hanging out a 3rd floor window (from his perspective) and members attempting an interior rescue go to the third floor (as seen from their vantage point) the interior team will go to the top floor (one floor above the trapped victim). I have seen various schemes for combating this problem. This includes numbering the floors from the front (or command post) side of the building and identifying below grade floors as the cellar, subcellar 1, subcellar 2, etc… It is also often helpful to reference floor numbers from the top floor, i.e. in the previous example the firefighter at the rear would identify the victim as hanging out a window one floor below the top floor.
7. Occupants trapped at enclosed shaft windows will not be accesible via portable ladder and hence the firefighter assigned to the roof position should take a life saving rope to the roof.
Hope this provides some “food for thought”.
Stay safe Brothers,
Lance C. Peeples
Great catch, Billy, thanks for sharing, this is a good one! I also would like to say that Lance is right on in his assessment. The third floor in the front is actually the fourth in the rear. I have operated in fires in buildings like this and it creates a great deal of confusion when you are trying to relay important information to command. Which floor are you really on?
Captain Paul Balentine
York Village,(ME) Fire Dept.
You guys need to give “whatever” a break. After all, he slept in a Holiday Inn Express the night he posted…
I appreciate this site dumbing down for knuckle-heads like me!
I’ve seen Google Streetview and overhead satellite pictures posted several times on this board. Does your department have real-time access to this type of imagery on the way to the call…?
Hey Mr./Ms. Whatever is your real name IKE (I Know Everything)? The are some other buff websites out there for people like yourself you may enjoy more than this one.
I don’t know about anyone else, but the beauty of this site is it allows us to look at the findings by other brothers and sisters of potential trends and hazards we may encounter on the street. The more we look at Windows, doors, layouts, hidden surrises, etc.; we develop a keener sense for attention to detail. We read the posts and for most of us we file these lessons learned away for a time when we may need them. It is the development of the firefighter thought process we call “thinking outside the box”.
One of my fire service mentors told me that what you take away from experience and training become your firefighting “playbook”. Even if some of the posts may not pertain to your district, ones interest in the article and the time spent understanding it becomes part of our playbook.
We draw upon our playbook every day on the job. It is what creates the greatest attribute of the firefighter: The ability to anticipate, rather than react.
So keep the posts coming Billy. There is always something to learn from it.
Mark,
I usually post the Google Streetview and overhead satellite pictures (if possible) to help answer questions that some may have.
I don’t work in Lewiston but no, my dept doesn’t have access to these resources enroute. However, with all of the Blackberrys, Iphones, laptops and notebooks ffs seem to be carrying around these days….. 😉
My dept does have MDTs (Mobile Data Terminals) but presently they just show a typical map layout.
First off, It was crappy hotel behind Excalibur on the other side of the frwy in Vegas with the tranny! Not holiday in express. Whoever said Im going to be a LODD because I dont look a pictures of buildings is ridiculous. There is better things to study than a crappy renovation job in building that will probably never have fire. Im an officer on a Enginge for one the largest FDs in the nation and in my first in there are 1000’s buildings ranging from resiential highrise, multi-million dollar homes, low-income goverment housing, hotels, motels, demolitions, construction, etc. Everything. I can walk down the st and take 1000’s of pictures of all these builidngs and make charts, graphs, books, and tactics but what for?
When there is fire showing with people trapped do you really think we are going to say “wait a minute.. I think I remeber this building got renovated one time and they had some shotty floor joists that didnt look up to code…..we should probably just stand outside defensively, skip the interior attack, and tell the family of the victims we did everything we could”
I dont think so. Maybe some of you guys roll that way but not down here. Like I said , do your 360, weigh the risk, make a decision, do something and be ready for changes. No two buildings are exactly the same so unless you have a photographic memory and can apply structural engineering principles and physics against fire growth with x-ray vision all while doing your sizeup then all the talk about the renovation job down the street from your station is pointless.
This site does have good info but It can easily be overun with garbage just like firehouse magazine did with ads. Training scenarios, tools, techniques and lessons from actual events are what is most useful.
I guess my post was a little to rough, harsh and sarcastic for someon of you since some got so offended.
Some people need to get a little thicker skin and toughen up. You might say I need sensitivity and diversity training but I say F**k OFF!
Im going to change my name to boiling pot stirrer!
I dont use or like the words “PLAYbook” or “Train how you PLAY” and any other phrases people come up with. THere is nothing about people dying and having their shit burn down that relates to “playing” or “fun”. Go to a few LODD funerals and you will see there is nothing fun or playful there. Thats an attitude and mentality that needs to change.
hey whatever!
Whatever
When I comment on a subject posted on this website, I usually first write it on word.
I know I’m not great at spelling or grammar so I cut and paste it. Just a suggestion that might help give your argument some more validity.
FTM-PTB…
Thanks Billy for the pic, WE ALL can learn from photo’s except for SOME BCJ Lt’s. I wish i could have some of the Knowledge that, this jake has. Every Little bit helps in our knowledge and training of building construction. Remeber 360’s and always stay safe Brothers.
whatever,
I don’t think anyone really disagrees with your thoughts and ideas, just your delivery. As an officer you should realize that any type of training is beneficial. And that’s what this site is, a training tool. Insulting people and a website, just because you don’t like the material, just makes you a tool. I know you’re some kind of tough, old, salty, engine company vet, so, since we’re being dicks, Ill say this…this is a truck site, if you dont f@#king like it, don’t f@#king read it. Ill give you the fact that not looking at a picture isn’t gonna kill you, but this may jog someone’s memory of a building in their own district. Someone who isn’t on the busiest engine company on the planet. I don’t think anyone is asking you to change, but don’t stomp all over someone else’s ideas. On a final note, your comments really make me glad you’re not my officer. Cuz’, guess what? I work with guys like you, and I don’t give a f@#k what they think either. Im not trying to start a pissing contest, because as Ive said, this is America and everyone is entitled to their opinion and that’s mine.
Whatever, since you are so disappointed with the recent content of this valuable resource, why don’t you post something that will benefit us. I mean, C’mon, anyone who has everything from high-rises to mobile homes in their still alarm has GOT to have something worthwhile to share! I know this reeks of sarcasm, but I’m being serious.
Oh wait a minute, I get it.
He doesn’t want us discussing photos of buildings that aren’t in our first due, town, state or….country for that matter.
So let’s take that a step further, why listen to anyone on the internet with an opinion when he’s not on my truck or even my dept?
Every topic on the internet is going to be fueled by video, photos or the written word and that’s the way it is.
If you read the paragraphs that ran with the photos you’d see that the subject wasn’t really controversial and that your opinion was largely the same.
So……Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
All for nothing.
Sorry I left my laptop unattended on the fire station kitchen table and some dork used it.
Hehe, that was me disguised as ‘whatever’.
“whatever” thats a real good awnser to know when you are wrong about something that people are trying to teach other jakes. Wish i had as much knowledge and experience as you…” i left my laptop unattended on the fire station kitchen table and some dork used it” come on thats total Bull$hit….
i didnt post that one
Which engine is one of the busiest companies you are responsible for? I would think that a sesoned engine officer would notice updates to building or some type of new construction that would help in decision making when the time comes. Not every single one, especially if your responsible for thousands. However the mind is such a wonderful tool that you may just remember 10 or 15 of those properties. I am sure you must go out on inspections..do you just check the emergency lights and signs and call it a day or do you investigate a bit and find deficiancies and note them in your head and the inspection form. Or do you not do them because your so senior that its ‘not my job’. Just curious still as to where you are coming from and which ‘busiest’ engine you are on too…that might lead to some insight into your absolute bitterness to this whole topic.
There is guys like him on every website and forum that just want to start shit. If we just ignore him he will go away.
BILLY BOY!
Thanks for your contribution… I know it was an eye opener for me.
Billy thanks for sharing and this will get passed on to the department. If you have the photos I will post the whole set on the departments server for all to see. Keep looking and we can post more for the guys.
Thanks BC LFD
I was told one time that if you have to tell people your in charge, your not.
If you make it a point to tell people you are on “one of the busiest engines….”, well, most of those that ride on the busiest Walk the Walk without the talk.
I AM on the busiest engine company in my city….granted we only run one……
OK, since we are being honest here….I too am on the busiest engine. We run three engines, but me and my guys call ourselves a squad (drives the chief crazy). Hey, last year SQUAD 46 ran over 2800 runs! It’s the latex glove wearing, donkey kickin, meter pulling bunch from SQUAD 46 C SHIFT!!!
Not only am I on the busiest department in town, I’m one of the nicest people I know…just ask me!!
You guys are idiots. I never said the busiest engine. I dont want to read about your circle-jerks anymore. Ill find a webstie with real firemen.
“Ill find a webstie with real firemen.”
Wait a minute….is that you Debbie?
Deb = Mrs FitSsikS
Damn. Will wonders never cease to amaze? Someone must have been pretty hard up to have to connect two 3 deckers! I guess 9 per apartment was just too much and than 3 floors wasn’t enough.
I remember back when we created this site to be a genuine training tool, not another place to bitch and moan… Ah, those were the days… Settle down boys, lets focus on some training. Thanks for the continued support. -Jimm-
Jimm, what took you so long? I thought this website was in your first due?
🙂
Once again, apologies for feeding the trolls….
JIMM…when you coming up to St.Auggy for a visit??
This type of construction is very common up here in the northeast, especially in mill towns like Lewiston, Me Lawrence, Ma etc. etc. The ‘U’ shape was so the inner apartments had a window. There is also an old brick tenement style where their is a 20×20 opening in the middle of the structure for ventalation.