Captain Cameron Bucek from Palm Beach County (FL) sent in this video he found over on firevideo.net. This video is proof that inadequate or inappropriate ventilation is like adding fuel to the fire. PPV is probably one of the most misused and misunderstood tools on the fire ground. Like so many other things in this business there is a time and a place… Although we are still trying to find the right time and place for PPV… Unfortunately, many departments use PPV on every fire regardless of conditions. That is simply UNSAFE! This video just goes to show you that vertical ventilation is not the most dangerous type of ventilation, misused PPV is!
[flv]http://www.vententersearch.com/videos/flv/ppvflashover.flv[/flv]
First! I gotta say, usually I’m not a huge fan of cutting holes in roofs a lot of the time,but this was obviously an absolutely nessecary time for that. That’s all Im going to say, because I can already see this turning into another Indy VES video incident. P.S. Brickcity1306, I saw some yardbreathers!!!!!
I also gotta say, I spelled ‘necessary’ wrong.
Thats why we called the PPV fan that one of chiefs liked using “The Fire Starter” If the fire wasn’t out of control before he started it it soon would be. Lets take a fuel rich oxygen starved atmosphere and inject massive amounts of fresh air YEAH BABY. Burns all around for everyone!
First I would have to say, like every other video in the fire service, we are only seeing one perspective, whats happening on the rest of the sides?. Second why is there an attack team preforming and exterior attack while a team is about to enter. Third where is the backup line of equal or greater size hose, i guessing they were using a 1 3/4″ therefore there should have been the same or 2″ or even a 2 1/2″. Forth PPV could have made this fire simple if used right. For guys that are not familiar with PPV, The fan should have been started and the “cone of air” should have encompassed the entire passage way, this would prevent fire from blowing out the door, and the house should have been “pressurized” for at least 10 seconds before the interior attack team entered. When the attack team is ready to enter the structure they signal for the OV man to break a window closest to the seat of the fire or at least infront of the attack team, NEVER BEHIND. Breaking windows behinde the attack team results in fire being pulled up on your brothers like the Charelston Fire. For companies that have never used a PPV used properly it is awesome, you can pretty much walk right to the fire, used wrong and well you see what happend.
Before my department even put PPV fans on the truckes we experimented for a day in a burn tower with cold smoke just to see the effects for venting, then trained with it with a class A burn facility and made sure everyone was proficent in how to use it and even how not to use it, now we use it on every “bread and butter” fire.
Please don’t ding me to bad for the spelling and grammar.
Stay Safe Everyone
1st of all thanks to CFD for posting this video (it really opens em’ up for a beating)In our (manpower lacking world) part of FLA Vert Venting is not an option most of the time…BUT taking windows is! that is some bad smoke @ the 3min mark(prior to fan deployment) I think if we do a better job at identifying dangerous smoke it may serve us better in I.D.-ing bad situations therefore performing PROPER venting given the manpower abilities(I do understand it was a training burn)
BTW fans fire up when the fire is knocked down is how we roll..
Haaaaa DMAN72 that is not a “yard breather†they were more like kindle wood for the fire!!! WOW lucky lucky guys, well I assume everyone learned that is NOT the time to start the fan!!! I agree with Stone, we never start a fan before a secondary search is complete; however I have seen depmarent’s use a fan rather than a TIC!!! You will with no doubt find the unseen pockets of fire with that baby.
I don’t care what was going on, on the other sides of the building. You don’t need to know. The point is that was lack of common sense and pure stupidity. What would possess someone to start a PPV fan when you have smoke pushing out, as well as firefighters inside when there is obviously not adequate vertical ventilation. Those firefighters are lucky, as for the fan starter, get off the rig!
That guy should be punched in the face. I’m sure he’s a probie or an old salt who was undertrained or too good to for training. And if the Chief told him to do it then he should be busted back to probie and required to take a remedial 24 hr PPV class. This video just pissed me off!
Ok,, so I remember a class a long time ago that thought vertical ventilation in a high rise then PPV the smoke, heat, and fire out the opposite side of the structure thus making it easier for the bucket heads and the victims. So they got a little confused,, no one is perfect!!!
Confused? They almost killed those firefighters! If that is what confused is, then they need to learn how not to be confused because that is just unacceptable. I agree no one is perfect, but something this obvious needs attention.
This is a perfect “what not to do” video. Unfortunately, guys almost got killed to make it. 1st off, a proper sizeup is impossible to perform when you are getting off the piece while already breathing air, let alone wasting valuable air. Secondly, PPV has its place in the firefighting world, however, its use during fire attack is not the right place. Departments have gotten lucky using it during attack, but it seems that it’s probably best served using it after the fire is out. Hopefully everyone walked away from this without any other incident, besides the one where the interior guys kick whoever started or ordered the PPV fan’s use.
While I agree that PPV can be more dangerous than vertically venting, if done properly it can create more tenable conditions for our crews and any civilians that may be trapped (there’s some interesting research going on in Salt Lake City) In my part of FL (manpower lacking like everywhere else) PPV can be implemented quickly during attack WHEN CONDITIONS WARRANT (i.e., not every fire) and we can coordinate/control the exhaust opening (not breaking out every window in the place. Most of the houses in my district are single-story ordinary with the ever-popular lightweight wood trussses that may or may not be fastened (gotta love our bldg. dept.). So, depending on when someone feels like calling 911, the roof may not be an option, and if it is, takes longer to do. But then again, what do I know? My 105′ just got replaced by a squirt 🙁
Sooo …. Tell us, what would you do if you were our boss on the job??? Billy bubba and I decided “let’s light us up a little shack and put a fan in the front door without any O/V work†what would you do??? What would tell us?????
I keep seeing a reference to Florida PPV tactics. Someone please elaborate. I have been using some form of PPV for nearly 19 years and have never thought of using a fan before fire control. Have always come from the school of agressive truck work and vertical venting a fire pushing that much smoke.
I’m not saying FL PPV is right or wrong, just saying I need more info to learn your method. Can someone post a video?
Another one in the loss column for PPV….I have yet to see one in the win column.
PPV is highly dangerous becuase there is no way to 100% guarantee that all of you ventilation openings are controlled in the occupancy. There is also no way to 100% tell if victims are at possible ventilation openings until the building has been searched.
The after that whats really the point of placing the fan beucase once we confirm all we don’t know in order to place the fan the fire should be out or be close to under control.
Just my opinion.
Brickcity, if I were the boss that job, my crew would have known better and that PPV would in NO WAY be the proper application for that fire (exhaust openings behind the attack crew, exterior hose streams, yada, yada, yada). I was in no way defending the tactics or lack thereof. I was simply responding with some thoughts on PPV during fire attack. There are many departments (obviously not the one in the video) who study, train on, and practice PPV/PPA proficiently, and I was just offering another view, how when done in the right situation and with good OV work (like I mentioned earlier) we can get good outcomes when the roof is not an option for us.
Still sulking in my ’89 squirt instead of smiling in my ’02 HAL.
Keep up the good discussion – cliche isn’t it?
Looking at the smoke should have told them not to fire the fan. Opening up the roof would have prevented the thing from lighting up in that manner. Starting the fan “after the fire is under control” is not ventilation, it’s smoke removal. Not bad mouthing the tactic or the poster by any means, but there is a difference between “vent” and “smoke removal”. The first would be opening up the roof, makes the place safer for victims and firefighters alike ALWAYS (if your scared to put fireman on it they sure as hell shouldn’t be under it)….firing the fan up can do that as well, as long as the moon is in the third house of Sheba and your on the north side of an even numbered street and you put your tongue just right…..but since I became a fireman and not a nuclear scientist I think the roof is my preferred option.
Training burn or real fire, doesn’t matter, not the time for the PPV fan. Like the other comments, no back up line, ext. line flowing while int. crew working, no roof venting. With reading the smoke (which some people say you can’t do),it doesn’t seem they were getting much water on the fire. It was pushing and getting darker and thicker after they entered. Also the guy on the pourch was trying to help, but he was pulling the hose faster than the guys could bail out, that is their life line. The sad thing is that there is a dept. in our county that would do the same thing. The fan comes off the truck as fast as the hose does. They put it right in the door blocking your exit, and it has gotten kicked in the yard before. The fan should wait until the main seat of the fire knocked down and used to vent the smoke and heat so you can find extensions and do overhaul. Well, another lesson learned.
Gotta agree with this was a great case for needing a trained OVM and the use of the 2.5″. My comment about PPV remains the same “if your not sure how to use it, don’t use it. If anything in your brain tells you to give it a second thought, don’t use it”. Likely these guys made it out. others have not been as fortunate.
Nate999, sorry I was pissy, Ya know the job, the kids, the old lady!!!! UGH,, I am getting pissed again LOL, calm blue ocean,, calm blue ocean… ok all better back on track, I am not a huge fan of vertical ventilation I feel it is done way too often rather than opening or taking out a window. Ya know what they say “you can’t stand on the roof all day,sometimes ya need to get on the fire floor.”
Nate999 sorry about the downgrade that sucks !!!!
Sorry Cottonwood FD, but that fireground looked like a total Charlie Foxtrot. Hang your head in shame.
A single inch and three quarter line could have handled that fire, even after the fan sent the house off to the races. Maybe it’s a lack of training, experiance, SOP’s, etc, but they’re damn lucky no one got injured or killed.
This video shows a good reason why verticle ventilation should be used on that type of fire condition. There appeared to be enough people on scene to make verticle ventilation happen and fire attack happen.
I have to disagree with Brickcity on this one. Vertical ventilation is not done enough in much of the country and therefore is becoming a practice that we teach in rookie school and then get away from in the field. Vertical ventilation is NOT unsafe if we train on fire development, testing the roof, and getting a hole dropped quickly and in the correct place. When the hole is done you get down.
If we continue to rely on horizontal ventilation on a regular basis as the only means of ventilation we will eventually get caught behind the 8-ball on a fire that dictates vertical ventilation. While every fire does not need a hole in the roof, I’ve never heard of a crew getting hurt when a hole is cut and not needed. I’d rather explain to the homeowner that there is a hole in their roof that maybe was not needed than explain to a FF’s family that they were caught in a flashover that could have been prevented.
ok, first of all you have an offensive and deffensive attack going on at the same time. Even if they made it to the back room they would have been toasted. 2nd, this department obviously has no clue on firefighting. There is a second FF in a yellow helmet standing there when he starts the fan, and just lets him do it. SERIOUSLY fellas this is the basics of FF.
The video is of a training burn.
The history channel, discovery, or somebody did a whole show on it. You might be able to find it on youtube I tried but well…type in “flashover” and you’ll understand.
One of the guys on the porch has a camera in hand, I think thebravestonline.com has it.
Anyway yeah they screwed up. No point it beating a dead horse.
We use both PPV and Vertical Ventilation effectively.
The problem with PPV is people start the fan, turn it on skyrocketing and that’s it. THAT DOES NOT WORK!
You can see the correct way in many Houston Fire videos.
We use PPV on trailer houses specifically and when done correctly we feel no heat and can put out a room full of fire with 10 gallons of water.
The both have their places on the fireground and both require alot of training.
Brotherhood above all.
Stay safe.
Punch them in the face…haa!!! That’s awesome! That may be a bit extreme but I appreciate the sentiment. Anyway, vertical, horizontal, hydraulic, tactics shmactics. Remember fellas, there is really no write or wrong in the fire service. Only beneficial or not and safe or unsafe. So break it down…Was their action safe? No. Was it beneficial? No. Remember what Jesus said…Let he who has never improperly applied a ventilation tactic, cast the first stone.
And I spelled write instead of right!!!! MOTHERF@#KER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nothing can replace actual fire ground experience. There is no substitute. BUT lets not all be glad in this that those guys went in and all of them came out. No matter how hot they were… I will say though their is a great training video on reading smoke on one of the other big fire websites. Guys be safe… Everybody Must Go Home.
WOW as said before all parties involved are lucky to not have been hurt. That fan is a weapon that can turn on you if misused. Up and out is safer than straight back at you !!!!
564 is right, this is a training burn. Unfortunately it shows what should NOT be done.
I work for a small department and we run 6 guys a shift. Our next in engine will take a MINIMUM of 15 minutes to get there. We use PPV right before we go in an it works great.
The Company Officer makes his walk-around when we arrive on scene and when he determines the seat of the fire he knocks out a window behind it. By the time he gets around to the front, we have our attack and RIT lines deployed and charged and a fan set up by the door.
The CO tells the attack crew what he has seen and as they get ready to go in, the PPV fan is cranked up and put in place. Wait 10 seconds and then make entry. Smoke and heat are reduced and visibility it increased. Attack crew can get to the fire seat and knock the fire down.
PPV is a great skill, but like anything it has to be done at the right place and time. I have seen firefighter fatality reports where vertical ventilation was done behind the attack crew. It caused the fire to flashover on the crew.
For us, vertical ventilation doesn’t happen right from the start.
Use your head and remember your training.
The crew in the video… well not a good idea to go in with that defensive attack on the D-side. Gotta coordinate your teams.
WOW! That was bad ass.
We really do not get to see that fire behavior change occur often enough.
I watched the video and thought this has got to be a training burn due to the lack of hustle on the part of the crews in the video.
I have used PPV and conjunction with a rapid and aggressive interior attack with very positive results.
We did this in the late ’80’s when the gas powered blowers first came out.
It works well in newer construction compared to older construction due to the changes in materials and better insulation.
It works and is not manpower sensitive
Remember Brothers ” VENT FOR LIFE ”
Secondly I love all the internet tough guy I am going to harm someone comments, Grow up!! and learn when to act and when to observe.
i would like to leave some very good information on the use of PPV during fire attack
Keep in mind that PPV is not useful 100% of the times, but when properly used it is an invaluable resource
greetings
http://www.fireventstudy.com/
,,,///
Didn’t I see someone with a “Safety Officer” vest on?…….ummmmmmmmmmm whats his job again?
WOW ! YA THINK THE GUYS INSIDE NEEDED TO EVAC SIGNAL TO TELL EM TO GET OUT? AND WHY DOES THE GUY WITH THE PPV FAN STILL HAVE HIS TEETH? THIS HAS ALL THE ELEMENTS…ENGINE (OR PUMPER AS THESE GUYS CALL IT) IN FRONT OF THE BUILDING, GUYS WITH CLIPBOARDS AND BRIGHTLY COLORD VESTS, LACK OF PROPER VENT, UNDERSIZED AND MISPLACED HANDLINES WITH POORLY TRIMMED STREAMS, PPV AUTOMANTIC NOZZLES AND NO TRUCK COMPANY….THIS IS WHERE OUR BELOVED FIRE SERVICE IS GOING…WAKE UP GUYS! WEST COAST B.S.
Hey, we used the PPV at work last night. Went off without a hitch!
Can this video be downloaded? We are looking to find some stuff about PPV and this would really grab the attention.
It is amazing that such a horrible tactic as PPV is even still around. This site is about Vent Enter and Search. PPV is a direct contradiction to VES.If you are using PPV on initial attack, you are obviously not searching the back side of the fire(VES). PPV was sold to the fire service based on “COMFORT” for the initial attack crews. Yes, the initial attack and search crews will have a nice cool breeze on their backs and a little more visibility. Guess who pays for our comfort, the victim or victims on the back side of the fire. Remember, the people that are not wearing $5000.00 worth of firefighting gear. We can always use the old PIO line used by departments that don’t aggressively search buildings. “The victim was deceased prior to our arrival” Are we sure about that ????????
What a ridiculous concept adding a 5hp fan to a fire in a burning building… Think about it.
being that every incident is different it has to be decided to the oic upon his size up as to which ventilation technique is used i personally think it is obvious that if you have a large area beyond the fire that by using ppv would do nothing more than cause a huge fire spread then you would use it. its common sense
sorry the last sentence was supposd to be then you would NOT use it.
When will Henrieta be done with those ladders, these guys could have used one
Haaaaa DMAN72 and don’t like you do, when they gave the order for PPV did you say “oh man better not Fu&K this up or it will be on VES by Friday ???
Hey Brothers:
This whole show kinda saddens me. I thought this website was about learning. It doesn’t take too many years of experience to realize that these guys screwed the pooch. However..those of you who tear into the whole PPV concept are looking at the picture with heavy shades on. PPV is used effectively, when size up is performed correctly, conditions for it are present and those applying it have trained on it. I used to have a limited understanding of how ventilation and VES was performed effectively back East until I asked, did my homework, got to know some guys and finally had an understanding of how building construction and neighborhood layout dictated these things. Guess what? If all you ever do is vertically vent, you are missing out on a very effective tool that you don’t have any experience with, so you’re bashing any pathetic piece of (#$@*) BROTHER who would dare to use it. Give me a break. Use this video for building up the Brotherhood, not tearing it down. Every department around me uses PPV. Some very well, some not so well. Some use Vert. Vent, sometimes well sometimes, too late. Gotta size up and use the appropriate tactic. I dislike PPV. However, it does work, I’ve seen it, over and over again. So does Vert. Vent. Get over it.
Put this particular video aside for a moment because it is NOT indicative of how positive pressure attack works. Show of hands (mouses) here. Who, that has posted negative comments about positive pressure attack, has ever actually done it or been educated on it to a point that they can make a valid argument against it? And yes there is a huge difference between PPA and PPV. Just curious. There is certainly room for discussion on the topic but I have seen too many FF’s reference this particular video and say PPA is stupid. Jimm and I just talked about this topic last week and have several times in the past.
This may be a total pipe dream but I would like to find us an acquired structure or two and do a couple burns with proponents of both PPA and VV and educate each other on it. And, if in the end you say its BS, than at least you attempted to broaden your scope of training. FD’s across the country use this tactic everyday on fires but when it comes time to use vertical ventilation they do that as well. Any department who says they should use PPA on everything is crazy. The first thing that needs to be taught to officers is when to use PPA and when to use VV. I personally enjoy cutting roofs, but also have an open mind and think PPA works. At the very least check out the fireventstudy.com link and say that at least you read something on it.
Tye:
Amen, Brother. Excellent viewpoint. And I totally agree, the joys of cutting a roof can only be experienced to be understood. I wish I could get my department to view it with a more positive light. But my efforts to do so have in turn, caused me to understand PPA/PPV that much better. I’m in Alaska, and at -50 degrees, that fan gets cranked up and you instantly begin to suffer if your in its path. I really don’t like it, but there are fires where it is our only choice, due to access or lack of access or manpower issues. Excellent way to cap this off brother. Thank you.
EVEN AS A PEE ON VOLLY WHO HAS HAD ONLY THREE YEARS ON THE JOB I GOTTA SAY THIS THING WAS DOOMED FROM THE GET GO. FIRST START OUT WITH THE GUYS HOPPING OFF OF THE RIG ALREADY MASKED UP. THATS REAL SMART LETS GET OUR MASK ALL FOGGED UP AND LIMIT OUR VISBILITY EVEN MORE THAN IT ALREADY IS . THEN LETS JUST HANG OUT OUTSIDE OOF THE DOOR WITH OUR THUMBS UP OUR ASSES. THEN LETS GO AHEAD AND VENT IT WITHOUT FIRST CUTTING A HOLE IN THE SON OF A BITCH
NOW ON THE SUBJECT OF PPA . WHEN USED EFFECTIVELY IT REALLY IS A GREAT TACTIC . MY DEPT USES PPA AS OUR FIRST CHOICE AS LONG AS FIRE CONDITIONS PERMIT. NOW SAY WE PULL UP AND THE WHOLE BACK SIDE OF THE HOUSE IS INVOLVED OR WE HAVE FIRE IN MORE THAN JUST ONE ROOM THEN WE GO TRADITIONAL . THE ONLY THING ABOUT PPA IS THAT YOU REALLY HAVE TO KNOW HOW IT WORKS. IM NO GURU ON THE SUBJECT BUT I DO HAVE A BASIC UNDERSTANDING
FELLAS, PPV HAS A PLACE IN THE FIRE SERVICE BUT WHAT WE SEE ON THIS VIDEO ISNT IT. ITS A CASE OF SOME FOOL BOUGHT A TOOL AND BY GOD WE ARE GOING TO USE IT. THE GUYS WHO ARE DUMPING WATER IN THE WINDOW WITH THEIR $800 FOG NOZZLE NEED TO DROP THE LINE AND GRAB A HOOK (PIKE POLE FOR YOU WEST COAST GUYS)AND START VENTING WINDOWS OPPOSITE THE ADVANCING HOSELINE…THE S@#$ NEEDS A PLACE TO GO SO THE HOSELINE CAN ADVANCE SAFELY. IF THE TRUCK EVER SHOWS UP MAYBE THEY CAN GET THE ROOF BUT THE IMEDIATE NEED IS A GOOD AGGRESSIVE HORIZONTAL VENT.
NIST has taken all of the guess work out of PPV. Here is a link to their report complete with pictures, data, facts, charts, video. They did a great job…worth a look.
http://www.fire.gov/PPV/index.htm
Roger
Sorry for the really long post, but this was a post I made on another site just two days ago regarding our experiences with PPV/PPA. Anyway this is for Tye to address his request
We’ve used or attempted to use PPV for many years. Basically we now use it as an after knockdown smoke removal tool. In this regard it has been very successful in clearing large areas and multiple floors of smoke conditions. In our experience, the use of PPV for attack (or PPA) was hindered by many factors: staffing, construction, climate and fear for the victims.
1. Staffing: we never seemed to put enough people on the fireground early enough to task two people to retrieving the fan and getting it going. All “rules” point to ensuring coordination and timing between the nozzle team, the OVM and the “fan turn in FF”, all of which we couldn’t seem to make work without slowing the first line or search. One could argue that both attack and search could be faster if the time was taken to get the PPV/PPA done right, but then there are other factors as well.
2. Construction: In the far reaches of the Northeast and certainly in my area, most of our older residential construction is balloon frame which is quickly a contraindication if the fire is in the basement or the interior wall covering could be compromised. Most of our jobs seem to be in crappy apartment buildings or dwellings where holes in the plaster or sheetrock are normal. Our EMS crews (firefighters) verify this everyday as they see the conditions in the homes. Most of our downtown is made up of connected 3-4 story frame and ordinary structures that have been breached over the past 150 years. Code stuff is slowly bringing this around, but not being able to define the 6 sides of the fire building is a big contraindication for PPV to me!
3. Climate: It seems the places that really have put PPV/PPA to good use have newer construction and the buildings are likely sealed up better. Up this way, we get cold winters and mild summers with just a few real hot days. Consequently, most people do not have central air and utilize their windows for day to day ventilation. Not being able to control the PPV outlet is a contraindication for use. In the winter many residents close off rooms in older houses/buildings to cut down on heating (big this year). So popping a window opposite the attack may not allow the pressurized air an outlet.
4. Fear for the Victims: We still believe in aggressive search and that only the FD can verify “no one is inside”. This obviously is tempered by the judgement of the first in IC. This means that if we think there could be people inside and we cannot verify their location, putting a PPV fan in could be pushing the fire toward them.
In the end we studied it, tried it and abandoned PPV for attack, but still use it as “designed”, though just for removing smoke after the knock.
A word of advice “youngin”. Wow only three years on and you think you can bash these guys like you did? Let me suggest a new post for you. “I hope all the brothers in video are ok, and I hope we all can learn something from this” “Be safe”
Dont get sucked into the “bashing attitude” kid.
I will say that I wont defend what was on this video. I hope all the guys are ok, and I really hope that lessons were learned here.
EGH-RFB
2dawgs,
I dont thing the youngster was really “bashing” anybody, but you do have a point. Youngin, be proud of being a “volly.” Firefighter are firefighters whether they’re paid or not. Paid guys are just better at it…KIDDING, ONLY KIDDING!” Believe me I know plenty of 20 year vet paid guys that don’t know s@#t. Also I see some new names with the same old comments. Again I’ll say, the guys on this site are using it to learn, just because we dont sugarcoat everything so as not to hurt peoples feelings, doesnt mean we dont respect each other. So everyone gather up your nuts and dont worry about who’s feelings are hurt.
Waaaaa,, I got my feelings hurt and am not coming out of the bunk room till the shift is over !!!! LOL
I read about half the comments and my eyes started getting bleary, so if what I’m about to say sounds redundant, forgive me!
I questioned whether this was in fact a training burn, due to the lack of sirens, the firefighters coming off the rig with their masks on already, and the crew in the rear operating a line in a very short amount of time. Apparently, this is the case.
The crew operating on the exterior, at the rear, appears to be protecting an exposure, not conducting an attack. At first, the sight gave me pause, and I wondered why on earth they were going at it from both sides… then I thought about the image perspective and realized that they are actually quite some distance behind this very small house.
The smoke conditions (which I believe CAN often be read, accurately) clearly indicated that the fire was continuing to develop unabated for a short time even as the attack crew made entry. It went from light to sort of dark to dark gray…. and then got fed a massive amount of fresh air.
Again, visual perspective may be distorting things somewhat, but it appeared that the guy on the porch needs to remember to stay low when fire is rolling out a door at his face, and to stay out of the way of crews attempting to exit a structure in a hurry. A large light at the door would probably have been a good idea too, to provide some measure of orientation, particularly since he appeared to rip the hoseline out of the hands of the crew that needed it to find the way out.
Ultimately, whoever was running/coordinating this training evolution is responsible for permitting someone to use the PPV improperly and at the worst moment.
Just my humble opinions!
Stay safe brothers.
And sisters! You stay safe too!
It is kind of funny that comments have been made about the absence or lack of proper O/V work. One of the tasks of O/V work is to perform horizontal ventilation through a window or doorway to allow the fire to escape the fire room or area so that the hose team(s) can advance and extinguish it. The fire showing from what I would call the “B” side of the house in the very beginning of the video sure looks like flames venting horizontally from a window or door to me.
This does not mean it was performed by an O.V.M. It could have self vented prior to the start of taping, but the end result is still the same.
Personally, I think the smoke should have ultimately dictated what was done here. The smoke began to change in color, pressure, volume, and intensity long before the fan came into the picture. The firefighter standing at the steps should have been able to clearly see these changes and if nothing else, communicate this to the firefighter at the doorway. I would suspect that the firefighter seen later in the video is an officer judging by the red helmet. He must have seen the changes as well. Indications such as these are the telltale signs of an impending flashover, PPV fan or not. I would have to say that this flashover was going to occur one way or the other.
The brothers are all still alive so ultimately, the operaton was a success. I’m sure they definately learned something that day.
I would like to say that, no, we dont see everything that is going on in this video and we could only speculate what else is happening on the fire scene. But I did notice that the third person going in the front door does not have their waist strap from their scba connected. It was just hanging to the side and we all know how that could be a hazard and/or another obstical to deal with while working. I think that we, as brothers and sisters in the fire service, paid/pt.time/full time/vol., we need to start thinking about what we need to do, to do our job safely before, during and after the bells/ tones go off. Be safe, help each other go home when the day is done, and keep fighting for saftey for everyone.
“EVEN AS A PEE ON VOLLY WHO HAS HAD ONLY THREE YEARS ON THE JOB I GOTTA SAY THIS THING WAS DOOMED FROM THE GET GO. FIRST START OUT WITH THE GUYS HOPPING OFF OF THE RIG ALREADY MASKED UP. THATS REAL SMART LETS GET OUR MASK ALL FOGGED UP AND LIMIT OUR VISBILITY EVEN MORE THAN IT ALREADY IS”
Eassssy Youngin, the ENTIRE Houston Fire Department as well as a lot of departments in that part of Texas do that due to the Reid Hood. They’ve found ways to combat the fog.
A/CM thanks for the info. Constuction makes sense while PPV works so well for us. In Southeast Texas we RARELY see ballon construction…..and what the Hell is a basement?
Brotherhood above all.
Stay safe.
First of all, glad this was only another “close call” incident and not one that ended in injuries or worse.
Secondly, I will go with the thought that this was a training fire, as that seems to be the general consensus and I have no way to prove otherwise. That being said, I found myself hoping that it was an actual incident. Our job is dangerous and unpredictable and training is no exception. However, at least with training you have the luxury of planning, coordinating,and getting everything in place before the evolution begins. This should translate into lessened danger and unpredictablity. Notice I do not say that there will be NO danger or unpredictability, just hopefully less.
Thirdly, I’m not here to bash one style or the other, just learn. I believe in PPV and we use it at the vast majority of our fires with very positive success. (no pun intended of course) I’m not saying the vert. vent guys are wrong, just that I will defend my position on the subject, but I can do so in a calm open minded manner.
Fourthly, the biggest loss that comes out of this is when someone is closed minded and refuses to honestly consider other ways of doing things. Debate is acceptable, bashing and name calling is not. My style of venting may not be the same for you, but it is one that I’ve investigated, practiced, and become confident with. As long as your style of venting returns you home safely then it’s fine by me.
May we all return safely to those we love. Be safe my brothers.
Just to clarify, this was a training burn. We recently examined this case in a Live Fire Training Instructor recert class. I will not get into the pros/cons of PPV vs. traditional ventilation but wanted to clear the air on the “was it” or “wasn’t it” a training burn. One more thing, there are interviews out there (youtube?) with the IC of the drill, it was his son on the line inside. They admit mistakes and lessons were learned from members on that department. Hopefully, some will be learned by the discussion here.
Looks like another training fire gone bad! “the stupid shall be punished”.
At about 2:15 to 2:20 Is that another line in service from the outside of the building? Cant tell if its its hitting the back of the house or something behind it But thats how u steam burn someone, Right?
Not to beat the dead horse here but…. Come on, it was a training burn keeps being said yeah all the more reason they should have had their shi! together! They almost killed 3 firemen? They shouldn’t be bashed? Really, no your right everyone from the chief, to the guy pouring water in a window from outside, to the guy starting the fan and watching the smoke blow back in his face should have gotten their asses kicked! THEY FRYED 3 GUYS!!!! THAT IS THE KEY HERE BOYS!! They are lucky they didn’t kill em… I don’t care about their feelings to be honest, I care about the 3 guys they almost killed so bash away!
Oh just saw another post I wanna comment on, yes this site is about sharing information and learning your right. But, this is a perfect example of what is wrong with a lot of the fire service right now. Some guy who read a book once on PPV for fire attack “hell we can do that”. Meanwhile the operation had a complete lack of BASIC fireground operations!
Finally got to see the whole vid! Recently got switched over to Fairpoint Comm as my IP and they “HOOVER”.
Reminds me of a close call at my first job as da chef (sp). Call was a storm related back-charging of the 220 coming into the house. We were chopping holes looking for fire (before TIC’s) when the neighboring Asst chef suggested using their PPV fan. I’m SOOOOOOOOOoooooo glad I declined the offer!!!
Ok, so im not gonna keep beating the horse, but if this is a training burn, i see many 1403 violations! And whats up w/ the booster line?!?!
Ok lots of talk about pro’s and con’s and when to and when not to use. This is the kinda stuff that KILLS our brothers and sisters!!! Why can’t we break the 100 firefighters LODD stat? Beacause of stupid stupid stuff like this! I come from a small combo department with limited funds but still manage to get trained. Hard to get houses to do live fire burns in but come on how about using the rescources like text books, videos, the internet, fire schools and the list goes on and on!
This just makes me sick to see. As a company officer I would walk away from this job if I let my crew get this close to death. But then again it would take common sense to know to walk away!!
Stay Safe All!!
I guess when you see a video like this one of the questions that come up is “who’s to blame”. Well who is? We can point fingers all day long but in we are to blame. We are to blame if we guys do not take this type of stuff and show it, as use it as a training tool back with your members. And after those guys see it they pass on what they learned and so on and so forth. It’s our duty.
Thanks for the great site.
RFB-EGH
Wasn’t there but can give my Monday Morning Quarterback opinion.
Looks like the typical training fire problem where we all want the BIG fire to put out. Don’t blame PPV on this, there was other issues. Read the smoke, whether or not PPV was started (a little late) that fire was going to flash like it did any minute. It didn’t look like anyone was getting water on the fire but there sure was a lot of heat coming out. Both the fire load, outside hose lines and lack of proper ventilation is what caused that fire to flash. Yeah I would say in this case due to the late start of the PPV it didn’t help the situation, but again, that was going to flash with those guys in there anyway. I’ve used PPV many times even here in the Northeast without any problems. You need to know what you are doing and pay attention, you just can’t start it and leave the building. It can help the fire with the fresh air but if you start it before the hose line goes in, then you will be putting the fire out as you go. Done it many times. My dept. has even used it at a training fire to hold the fire to one side of the building, pretty amazing.
As far as the training fire issues, stop attacking training fires different than you do real fires. Remember, they are all real fires. This is the the type of building we shouldn’t be getting hurt at or kill at. It is what we do the most and should do the best.
Stop being routine
Be safe everyone,
at least it was a good change of pace seeing them get out of the truck with full ppe including packs :p good job by the door man to get everyone out
This is an absolute perfect example of what not to do so let me give you a run down of just what I saw.
1) Firefighters getting out of the cab with their masks already on their face. Take it off, it doesn’t take too much time to put on before you go in, it limits vision and creates a tunnel vision affect in the firefighter.
2) Buckle ALL your straps, they are there for a reason, use them.
3) look at the windows, with that amount of fire load behind them they should have broken by now.
4) Who was looking and “Reading the smoke,” when its real black, heavy, and heavily charged like that there is a huge potential for catastrophy as in this case.
5) Get on your knees!!! not a half ass chicken walk.
6) What is going on with the hoseline in the rear of the structure? is there a reason they feel the need to water not to mention the huge amounts of air to the mix?
7) Where is your safety line? Our SOP is as follows; primary attack line is backed up by a larger diameter line if possible. Therefore, a 1 3/4″ line is backed by the deployment of a 2″ line and if needed backed again by a 2 1/2″ line.
8) PPV was added at the complete wrong time. There was absolutely no place for the fresh air to push the smoke and heat, therefore all the PPV did was to feed the existing fire.
9) But with all my negative comments, I must insert a positive one: The only good thing is all firefighters who went in came out alive.
DID WE LEARN SOMETHING????
As a fan of PPV you really hate to see it mischaracterized or improperly applied. I wasn’t at this particular fire nor am I a member of that fire dept. so I won’t attempt to bash them. I will say that to have sucessful positive presure ventilation you just have to apply a few very simple principles:
1. Self discipline-In todays new construction you cannot arbitrarily just go through crashing windows with no plan. PPV depends on venting the FIRE area only. Every uncontrolled opening you make away from the original fire room is going to be a vent opening eventually whether you want it to be or not.
2. Know your craft-That vent opening in the FIRE AREA only must be the correct size. Using a very small window OR not clearing the window opening completely will not be sufficient. If the FIRE AREA has more than one window then use more than one.
3. Control-As the FIRE AREA is being vented, the fan is then put in place at the POINT OF ENTRY and at the correct distance from the door.
4. Communications-The fan must be started just before or just after the hoseline is advanced. That’s right, the truck and engine officers actually have to talk to each other or work extremely well together.
This hysterical fear of the fan blowing the fire out of control is unfounded as long as you do it CORRECTLY. Most of the time when the fire gets out of hand is because of poor fire stream management or incorrect vent openings.
ah, the great fan at the door trick! I believe a fan can be useful….when properly used. It clearly was not in this case. There was a handful of other issues here besides the fan. I do not sharp shoot these guys, I believe they had the best of intentions in regards to training. My only hope is that they and others have learned from this near tragic event! Even in a large department(ie: mine)we still have individuals that would inproperly induce PPV. This is clearly a training issue we all need to embrace. Remember that we are all here for each others success and safety.
lets make sure…”EVERYONE GOES HOME!”
While I agree PPV has a place and time, the smoke conditions prior to the use of the fan in this case clearly indicate that flashover was eminate. “The Art of Reading Smoke” is just that, an art, something we all should study.
ok i will say this i was in the wrong place just bashing my brothers and sisters in this video . i was simply venting because i just want to scream at poeple sometimes. i see this on fire scenes all the time in my home town. people masking up in the truck and when you try to tell them just to hold off they sdont want to listen. coming off the truck with your mask on will impair your vision and you might get that tunnel vision effect. when we get that tunnel vision going on no matter if its just training or the real deal it is dangerous . from the time that you pull up to the time that you back the rig into the station observe everything that is going on around you. i apologize to anyone who got their feelings hurt by my comment and i am very glad that everyone made it out alive. lets all learn from this video and make our scenes a lil bit safer.
I am more concerned with the guy pulling the hose line out before everyone is out of the structure. It may have been there guide to the front door. PPV works well as does other methods but reading the smoke may been beneficial too. It indicates to me conditions were rapidly deteriorating inside. Be safe.
A/CM (february 10)
about your comment related to victims and PPV affecting negatively to his/her surviability, check
http://www.fireventstudy.com/
The University of Texas at Austin and the Austin Fire Dept conducted numerous test using PPV, including the survivability of victims using this equipment
the majority of the cases it was messured that the temperature in the room were the victim(dummie) was located it decreaesed considerably even without venting the fire room nor the victim’s room
lets remember though, PPV is not for each and every case and it requires good and thorough training and well developed SOG’s
lets read about the technique, understand how to use it and when it can be used
just as you can see on the video, if you don’t know how to use PPV you better fall back to the basic ventilation procedures
,,,///
r14nicolau February 16th
Again, I do believe PPV/PPA is a valid tactic where it can be routinely used properly. In our situation it seemed we found that more often than not, we had contraindications. One of which in our eyes, is not being able to determine where the victim is in relation to the fire. In a single story newer home it may be much easier to determine where the seat of the fire is and complete your exhaust vent with less concern for the victim being between it and the fire. Our area is mostly two and three story 75-100 year old wood frames dwellings and apartment buildings with numerous remodels. Quite often the seat of the fire is not readily apparent and must be found from the inside.
I am confident that PPV could work here as well, it just requires more thought when it cannot become part of your initial action routine.
A/CM:
absolutely..!!!
and then again, a bit to follow your last statement, the work done here by UT and AFD is exactly that, a study. And even though the results were encouraging, we must determine if PPV is right for the situation and specific building type.
knowing your territory, as you say, is as important as knowing how to use PPV and deploying the first atack line (among other things), … maybe even more.
,,,///
I noticed there are some folks that obviously have no clue on how PPV actually works and the reasons that you use it. Some folks are saying that PPV makes conditions worse for the victims, when in fact it the exact opposite.
Everytime I’ve used it (including with victims)The heat and smoke conditions immediately lift and get better. The hose crew can not only fide the fire easier but doesn’t a take beating trying to get there.
Anyone that says PPV makes conditions worse for the victims has obviously never done it or seen it done correctly.
Vertical ventilation definately has a place, but in my area where the vast majority or homes have lightweight truss construction AND plywood floors in the attics. vertical vent is not an option in our residential construction
Wow I saw that coming… People need to learn to read smoke… Also that roof needed to be vented! I know not all depts have fires all the time and sometimes go years without fires but just keep up on your training… If your academy has a burnhouse go there practice. The way that smoke was I would never have sent guys inside that without venting.
J.DeAngelis
a N.J Fire FIghter
I really do enjoy this sight, but man is it like a broken record!!
Whoever posted the study, good article. Thanks for breaking up the monotony of this thread.
I hate hearing people get on the, “I noticed there are some folks that obviously have no clue on how PPV actually works and the reasons that you use it.” high-horse. Bro just because people don’t agree with you doesn’t mean their idiots.
PPV is a very badic concept that is taught in every firefighter course. It’s not rocket science and I think we all “get it.”
Can we all not agree that conditions dictate tactics? If you use PPV as PPA all the time, trust me it will get used in the wrong condition and bight you in the ass. Just like if you vertically vent when conditions don’t dictate it. It’s a tool in the tool box. Nothing more and nothing less.
Landon you have to explain your post. I don’t understand how you can have a plywood floor in an attic with trusses. There’s not much to nail to.
Bull,
I think he was trying to say that the homeowners had decked their attic (usually for the purpose of storing all their extra crap that they ran out of room for in the house, like me 🙂 ). There’s plenty to nail to. It’s just like sheathing over floor joists.
Always a pleasure to read the variety of comments posted here. It does seem that the majority tend to be from the middle to eastern half of the country. As a west coast firefighter, I can say that we use ppv on a regular basis quiet successfully. The reason for that is the difference in building construction. The issue again is choosing the most appropriate actions based on conditions. This should not be a fan vs saw arguement but rather a chance for members of other departments to post their policies or sop’s so we can ALL become better educated, better performing firefighters. What works in my first-in may not work in yours, but I would like to know reasons not just how mad you are. Oh and youngin, you might want to check your caps button next time, people might take your comments the wrong way.
FF’s are getting seriously injured and killed with great frequency due to failure to get back to basics.
-Vent ahead of the attacking hoseline.
-Choose the correct sized line(s) to deal with the potential volume of fire.
-Overwhelm the fire with your attack line(s).
-To flow the correct amount of water, you must know the friction loss for the brand and style of hose you are using. Friction loss can vary greatly depending upon the brand and style of hose.
-Know what nozzle pressure your nozzle requires. Remember, if for some reason you still choose to use an “automatic” nozzle, the spring will adjust the baffle based upon the pressure you are providing. You may have a straight stream that looks nice but lacks the GPM’s needed to overwhelm the fire.
Proper ventilation coupled with the right flow applied in the right place can prevent a flashover.
By the way … it’s not a good idea to stand in the doorway during a fire attack … when the fire suddenly erupts as it did in the video it’s going to follow the path of least resistance / a place where it can gets lot’s of oxygen …
Be safe.
all the talk about ppv, the first thing that i noticed was how close they parked the rig to the front door, are the running short on hose or what…. i am a paid ff/emt-p and also volunteer in my home county so, it may seem like a pointless observation but we had one of our intellectual masterminds park a tad bit too close on a structure fire call that was fully involved on arrival…long story short…we got new stickers and a new light bar for the truck, fire is hot was his lesson. now to the ppv/ppa conversation… i have used ppv and verti vent, to use ppv successfully it is only used at the proper times as deemed by oic or the requesting interior crew once they locate and begin to knock out the seat of the fire. they only problem that i have had with ppv involved a WOOKIE… that was told to break out a window on the back side of the building, well he probably just wasnt very good at math or directions because he seemed to have lost count of how many windows and where to take them out at. nothing bad happened to the crew, the wookie was chastised and damn near hazed but i think his lesson was learned…luckily we had a handle on the seat when he went helter skelter on the windows. any way….continue to train, there is no right way to vent every fire, read the smoke and use your knowledge and experience to train others, we were all WOOKIES once too.
i see alot of companies and departments goin with ppv and dont know what thier doing, i still think vertical is the way to go when needin to vent, maybe im just old school
Exactly right, For some reason in our area people nail sheets of plywood to their joists to allow for more storage in their attic. If you perform a vertical vent not only do you run into the contents of the attic but a plywood “floor” as well. We also have attic storage areas with fully finished floors.
Don’t get me wrong I am a fan of vertical ventilation. It actually works faster than PPV IF you have the staffing to do it you have the building construction to support it. In my dept we run a 3 man truck and only 1 special services unit on SFD’s so only so many truck functions can get done in a timely manor. PPV is a way to handle ventilation with limited resources and staffing.
Bull you are also correct that PPV is a tool in a tool box and that tool must be used in the right situation. I am not a closed minded individual by any stretch but it frustrates me when people mischaracterize or are just plain wrong about a very simple procedure.
If PPV is used in the correct application, it in no way makes it worse for the victims, it makes it better for everyone. So for someone to say PPV kills the victims and burns down houses, I’m simply saying, you ain’t doin it right.
Please look at the NIST website (above) – I just took a seminar they presented on PPV as well as fire dynamics. Obviously from the VES video above, it has a time and place.
Be Safe!!
For those of you who do use PPV/PPA successfully can you please tell us the relative region you work in? NE, SW, SE, etc. Also, the relative average age of the buildings and homes in the place you work? Type of predominant construction of dwellings? Basements, slabs? As I said, the reasons we failed to “get it right” were based mostly on geographical/construction factors.
I work in southern California where we have mostly slabs with wood frame construction. In new construction, roofs are lightweight and do not last long during fire conditions. Houses rarely have attics and they are not built to keep out cold weather. Ppv works well in our tactics due to the nature of construction. Cutting a hole while a good tactical move is not always the best choice in our environment. No matter the choice though, both ventilation methods need to be coordinated with interior attacks. It has been pretty well established that this video is of a training exercise gone terribly as a result of poor leadership. I saw this footage in a class on OSHA conforming training burns. I think their actions should be used as a lesson on what not to do rather than on what tactics should be thrown out of the fire service tool box.
One question that I have not seen asked on PPV versus ventilation pertains to if the operation does not work? You can shut a fan off, can you close a hole in the roof? Also, a fan can be set up within a minute or two of arrival, can you cut a hole in the roof that fast? For those who want to bash ppv PLEASE do your research before you bash it. If done CORRECTLY with an adequate exhaust opening immediately prior to fire attack it works well. As others have pointed out the amount of fire involvement and reading the smoke is very important. If you start the fan prior to making entry and things go bad, you can shut the fan off and reassess the situation. Our primary objective is life safety, proper use of PPV or PPA will drastically reduce temperature and smoke levels in a structure to improve the viability of any victim still in the structure. Additionally, an 18 degree temperature drop will reduce the off gasing of an ordinary combustible by 50% thus helping reduce fire spread, IF you have a correct exhaust opening for the fan.
This video is an perfect evidence of the need to shrink the size of fire departments in favor of more prisons and police officers. The house was a write off when the firefighters arrived. There was nothing to save by going in the house with the fire hose. The only reason is “we have always done it that way.” Now multiple firefighters are hurt for no reason. The answer is to not go in the buring building unless some one is trapped inside. The big water cannon on the fire engine would have worked perfectly and with better results. And it only takes two people to operate it.
Wow, looks like my city officials actually are tracking my posts during working hours. 🙁
wow, shrink the fire department…sounds like elected officials are the same everywhere guys. that is a great idea right up until you or your family need help. i guess you could always call a cop or a prisoner if you need help…good luck with your plan there city manager
It looks like “City Manager” shoots from the hip. If he would read all the posts he would see that this was a training fire! Maybe he needs to increase the size of his departments Training Staff!!!
I hate videos like this because all you are seeing is one side. It is easy to Monday morning quarterback and we as the fire service are the worst and most critical of others. With that being said, here are my comments from what I saw.
This is appearently a training exercise because the video show hoselines on the Delta side of the structure upon arrival of the engine. If this is the case then where is the RIT and back-up line? The roof should have been vented prior to starting the exercise. Where was the interior safety?
The video shows opposing handlines with the outside crew hitting the fire while the interior crew is making entry. As far as ventilation goes if the fire is in the attic space then vertical ventilation should be done. If not then horiziontal venting of the fire area should be accomplished. Remember, where ever you make a hole the fire will come to it.
The topic of PPV prior to extinguishment should be left in the lab where it can be controlled, not on the fireground.
The firefighter at the front door trying to help by pulling the hoseline could very easily be pulling the hoseline away from the trapped crews. This may be the only indicator of how to escape.
We as a fire department go to way too many funerals and most are caused by mistakes we make. Edmund Burke said: “Those who don’t know history are destined to repeat it.”
I can honestly say that most residential fires we turn on the fans. Its amazing. You can go directly to the seat of the fire in nearly 100% visibility. We dont use it all the time, but most residential structures we do if the condition is right. I have been in the fire service since 02 and I have seen 2 holes cut in the roof the rest is PPV. We have never had a firefighter burned due to PPV. I can tell it the first few minutes that PPV wasnt going to work. It didn’t appear they had a window busted in that video. We do alot of training over PPV and I am very comfortable with its use.
what a fucking idiot who evercalled for the PPV fan
I am not going to add any more comments about ventilation as there are many great posts on that topic. But lets look at other aspects of fireground operations. Some things that came to my mind are:
1. Where was the IC? No one did a walk around. Maybe strategy and tactics would have changed if a walkaround was completed. Apparently the IC was not positioned out front where he could see that the smoke conditions were worsening after the first team made the initial push. That was a big red flag that maybe something would go wrong and that a Plan B may be neccessary.
2. Why was there a team on the D side making an external attack while members were inside the structure? And, why did they have SCBA masks on?
3. Where was the RIT?
4. Why was there no manned backup line stretched to the front door? Members put the priority of setting up a PPV fan above the safety of the interior crew. Someone pulled a line, but not until way into the flashover.
5. Wimpy air horns on the evacuation signal. Three short blasts is not enough. You wonder if anyone even heard them. Sounded more like another piece of fire apparatus approaching the scene than an evacuation signal.
6. Based on the initial sizeup, was a single 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 line the right choice? Hose selection may have changed pending what you see during your walkaround.
All in all a great training video to discuss a lot about interior strategy and tactics.
This fire should have been vented as soon as those guys entered the structure. That flashover shows poor Line Officer leadership and poor judgement on how to extingush this fire. No-one should be shoving fire to unburned areas of the house…this is esentials 101.
All i can say is you have to use what works best for you. I cam from all vertical vent & it worked great. I now work at a Dept that uses 90% Positive Pressure Attack and it works great too. Use what you know & know what you are using. I can tell you when using PPA properly its makes it safer for you and any victims in the house. The important part of all of this is to train with the techniques that you are going to use.
Back in the late 1980’s when I was still a battalion chief for what is now Sacramento Metro Fire in California, I was the roof division officer on a fire at an 18,000 square foot student union services building at a community college. We had a stubborn fire in the attack. I had a couple of truck companies on the roof with me and we were attempting to vent the roof as we knew we had a backdraft condition developing in the attic. Other crews were attempting to hit the fire from below with hand lines. Fortunately, all of the personnel on the roof were operating on the north side of the roof. All of a sudden, there was a thunderous explosion that knocked us all down. As we got up and dusted ourselves off, there was about a 50 foot diameter hole in the roof on the south side of the building. After the fire, we were later able to re-construct the events sufficiently to determine that someone had fired up a large, gasoline powered smoke blower and had positive pressured the interior of the building. The explosion in the attic occurred, as it did in this video, within just a few seconds. I came away from that experience way back in the late 1980’s teaching my firefighters that, while PPV certainly can be used effectively if applied in the right circumstances, an absolutely safety rule needed to be that you did NOT use PPV unless and until you have appropriately evaluated the risk of backdraft and/or sudden flash over. That lesson has since been memorialized by such notables as Mittendorf in his excellent book, “Truck Company Operations.”
Now, having said this, I would also tell you I have used PPV in other, more appropriate circumstances with great success. Within just about a month ago, I responded to a bedroom fire in the basement of a single family dwelling where the conditions were right for what we call a PPV attack. It took three COORDINATED centers of effort: a firefighter at the front door with the fan, the attack crew in the basement hallway outside the closed bedroom door, and a ventilation crew at the ground level bedroom window. With all the players in place, the vent crew was told to take out the window, then the fan man was told to positive pressure the house, then the attack crew, after we had evaluated the smoke coming out of the bedroom window to be safe, was told to enter and extinguish the fire. It worked like a charm. Even though the bedroom was totally involved, their was so little fire and/or smoke damage through the rest of the house the occupants were able to immediately reoccupy all areas except the damaged bedroom.
1st of all. I saw outside hose teams shooting water in a building with men inside. cmon brothers that is a NO-NO. did anyone do a 360 around the building? PPV should have been done, but not like this. vent the roof, lift the crap off the brothers and then start it. These guys are lucky to be alive. Nobody is even close to being perfect,but guys, this is atrocious. Time to go back to basics and train train train.
Stupidity. Even if it was just a live burn training fire. Video’s been on youtube for a while now. Learn something new every time I see it………….
Everyone is missing the point. He had the fan pointed the wrong direction and was PULLING the air, not pushing it.
Not sure if I’m missing sarcasm or something…looks like the fan is pointed in the right direction (still shouldn’t have used it). Not sure where you’re getting that it was pulling the air.
I would have been pissed if I was inside. I seriously hope we all learn from this video never to do this, especially with guys inside. I would have been heated at the guys who did that, they were lucky to get out when they did.
And just to be clear I hope to never see something like this again for as long as I’m around.
FF/EMT Rocco Kennedy
Bellmawr(NJ) Fire Department
Very sad. Safety is the job of everyone on the fireground. I doubt this guy got the fan off the truck and onto the porch without anyone seeing him. I know were it me cranking that fan up I’d feel like worm dirt for a long time to come but so should anyone else that didn’t stop him and say, “We’re not ready for that yet.” or any variation thereof. We’re supposed to be brothers so act like it. Sometimes a smack on the head is warranted and before the act is preferable.
“”This video is an perfect evidence of the need to shrink the size of fire departments in favor of more prisons and police officers. The house was a write off when the firefighters arrived. There was nothing to save by going in the house with the fire hose. The only reason is “we have always done it that way.†Now multiple firefighters are hurt for no reason. The answer is to not go in the buring building unless some one is trapped inside. The big water cannon on the fire engine would have worked perfectly and with better results. And it only takes two people to operate it.””
Yeah Jackass, Just what we need… More the COP-O-METERS. Stick to the pencil pushing. Its people like you that get us killed.
Houses are not “write offs” – WE PROTECT PEOPLE AND PROPERTY.
Would you want me to pull up to your house and say it’s not worth it?
As far as i operate, you house isn’t empty until I have searched it twice.
Lastly, I’m not even going to go there with the water cannon.
I’m beating a dead horse here, but with a new stick (I promise).
20+ years ago, I was taught that we (the FD) had to make the building behave to sucessfully extinguish structure fires. Ventilation remains the only way we have to make the building behave.
I personally loathe PPV, but I’m a truck officer who is expected to operate in an unprotected fashion ahead of the attack line on all floors. That means dark & smokey hallways, and yes, heat. Members assigned to the truck must be trained and proficient in operating in an unprotected manner and capable of performing horizontal ventilation as they progress through the structure searching for life, and fire. In my experience, the PPV fan does not care about our mission, personnel, or the ever changing conditions present, IT JUST BLOWS (that was funny I dont care who you are).
I would ask you to view it from this perspective; Have you ever worried about extinguishing a camp fire? What about a large camp fire? What about a bon fire? A really BIG bon fire? No? Why?
Because as long as you have enough water, you can walk right up to the seat and apply the water directly to the problem and Viola! Fire out and problem solved. Hell I’ll bet at least 50% of you didnt even bother to mask up first (GASP! Safety Flag!!!!)
Why didnt you mask up? Why was it so easy to extinguish safely? Because there was nothing to unnaturaly affect the heat’s intrinsic properties – TO RISE. The smoke (if there was any, since there was no restriction to good air) rose with the convected currents. NOTE TO ALL PROBIES – HEAT RISES.
On the other hand, hide the same campfire deep inside a structure, and almost all the answers change dont they? The only one that stays the same? Thats right Truckies – HEAT STILL RISES. But some other things happen too. Like restricting the amount of oxygen rich air to the flame front. This makes for more smoke (think fuel), and we now have a very dangerous and highly explosive mixture that is just waiting for a nice big ‘ol breath to prove to you who is in charge. The other major thing is (drum roll please…..) PRESSURE! Thats right, the fire makes its own pressure inside the building! Thats why it “pushes” out under pressure when we make holes, be they doors, windows, or vertical ventilations.
Vertical ventilation is the safest way to mitigate the dynamic environment that is sealed up inside the building. By opening up high, we allow the nasty stuff to exit and make that really cool light show (vent-point-ignition) outside the structure, above all of us, where WE want it. It permits a fresh air exchange in the building that PREVENTS flashover inside the structure by reducing the fuel load before increasing the oxygen concentrations of the interior – where we are in the greatest danger.
I dont want to pressurize an already overpressurized structure that was never built to withstand those forces. I want to work to make the building (all of them) as much like the camp fire as possible. The easiest way to do it is to take the lid off the box that is over the camp fire. Keep it simple.
Fans cannot replace a Truck Company even if you put one on every Engine in your department. It can be a useful tool when used at the appropriate times, but the reality is that those times are pretty limited. I have seen it do tremendous harm used both as PPV and PPA.
“Vent, and the Engine shall live…”
FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH
First, it looks like they sure take their time with the initial attack. Second, it appears that a line is being directed into the building from the D exterior, following the handline making entrance through the front door. It would appear that this may have pushed the fire on the FF’s working inside. Very hard to judge without being able to do a 360 of this building. However, there is only the VERY rare occasion where fire is hit from the outside, while men are working inside. We might knock down fire in the eaves, put a curtain up to protect exposures, and if our fellow firefighters become fully encapsulated in flames we would certainly protect them in any fashion possible, nothing which would endanger the ff’s working inside.
Let’s throw this scenario at you boys. Fire located on side 2 or “b” for you NFIRS followers. Fire is in the middle of the structure. Prior to conducting a primary search, you fire up the old airboat motor, AKA the PPV fan. WHY? Because it’s easier and safer for your members to operate. Well bad news boys, there Was repeat, Was a victim on the side 2,3 corner. Unfortunately for him and you, you effectively blew fire, smoke, and superheated gasses right on top of him. Oh and you didn’t find him until overhaul because your fan, with a window popped in the back, made the back side of the house untennable for searching and occupants. THERE IS A TIME AND PLACE FOR THE FAN, I AGREE. WHEN THE FIRE IS OUT AND YOU NEED TO RID THE BUILDING OF THE REMAINING SMOKE.
We will operate with members underneath it all day long. No way in hell, though, will we put members on top of it. If you want to make the fireground safer for members operating and occupants inside GET THE ROOF.
It makes me sick to read FIREMEN say the fan makes it easier to get to the seat of the fire. No f’n way. You don’t say. Well one question, Who searches the back side of the fire while yall are backing in the airboat?
Spencer Bashinski Orlando Firehouse 11
First off, just gald they got all their firefighters back in one piece. Maybe with dirty underwear, but all in one piece.
Flashover’s are one sort of unpredictable action, but taking a bit more time to “figure out” the fire so to speak would be well worth the outcome in a positive way. Of course some situations call for right then and now actions, but on a traiing fire such as this one, look at the options. What is the risk versues the reward. Again, this being a training mission, you want your people to look for the fire, preserve interior contents and possible arson evidence with nozzle management, ensure you’ve got all your peole together and of course feel the heat. You also have to consider the two in and two out which they had, but what about verticle ventilation? At the time when the fan was put in the front door, there was no attempt to remove the heat, sases and such, other than back on the fire crews once the interior was pressurized. The gases, trailing fire went to the point of pressure and relief being the front door. Only a matter of time before it happens. Look at the smoke coming out as well. At first, light gray and flowing pretty well. Not long before the fan and right up till it was blowing, it started to pick up volume and movement, letting you know someting is fixing to happen.
Taking that extra step to ventilate (verticle) prior to cranking the fan, would give the pressure, gases and such a place to go other than back on the attack crews.
Lucky for the crews inside, there was a backup crew at the doorway, an MPO that was on his toes to sound the MAYDAY and a crew on the outside (to the right of the house) trying to cool down the situation.
Crew on the outside(right side) trying to cool things down??????? If you notice, they are hitting the fire from the outside prior to the flashover, while their crew is on the inside!!!!! They may in fact have pushed the fire on their brothers/sisters!!!!!! I can’t say for sure, because I cannot see what they are hitting with their stream. I can only hope their stream was not directed to the interior, because their crews were in there with their own line. That’s a GREAT way to burn the crew on the inside……I understand trying to cool things down from the outside once it has flashed(in the case where it is the only protection for the ff’s inside, or the lack of anyone inside), but hitting fire from the outside while crews are on the inside is definately NOT a good tactic, only in the WORST case scenario(flashover and the crew is inside with no other protection) And I think it’s fair to say the placement of that fan was not a great idea either. Communication and coordination on the fire scene are critical to the safety of the operation, as we all hope to get home to our families safe.
Ok. I know someone mentioned “reading” smoke. Good point but noone really states what reading this smoke told them. Someone else accurately stated that the smoke changed in intensity and in the way it moved just prior to the fan being started. Another excellent point. However, what I saw in the video (limited FOV and all) did not look like a flashover as others had stated. I think that there was an attempt at horizontal vent but the outside hoseline was attempting to attack the fire through a window that was broken out. I also believe that there was extensive extension (yeah, I know) into the attic space and when the fan was started they literally pushed that fire down onto the interior crew, it also appears at the front door as some serious vent point ignition from super heated gases being pushed past the ppv point (insufficient seal around the door) I also believe that they started with a gameplan and stuck with it in spite of the changing conditions and the clues that the fire was giving them about what was really going on inside the structure. I will admit that I am not an expert on PPV Attack but I know when it would hurt to push air into a structure. This is my take on it and I don’t believe the company in the video should be beaten up for it. Mistakes happen and can be learned from as long as we refrain from the blame game long enough to learn.
Everyone went home and that is all that really matters.
Just glad everyone got to go home that day.
Even when misused, PPV hasn’t been implicated in any LODD report I can find.
Vertical venting gone bad has resulted in several LODDs, including the Waldbaum’s multi-LODD in NYC many years ago.
That’s not an indictment of either technique. Both have their place. Both can be misused. They’re just tools in the tool box.
In the video, the fire was actually autovented with plenty of clear air at the floor level. Getting water on the fire would have taken care of this fire without either the fan or going to the roof.
Ben,
If you have not already, I would suggest that you review the LODD report from Contra Costa (CA) County Fire. They had a double LODD on July 21, 2007. The detailed report of the event can be found at: http://www.cccfpd.org/LODD.html While I am not saying the PPV was the cause of the LODD, the report is worth the read. -Jimm-
Ben Waller April 10th, 2009 12:44 am
Even when misused, PPV hasn’t been implicated in any LODD report I can find.
Vertical venting gone bad has resulted in several LODDs, including the Waldbaum’s multi-LODD in NYC many years ago.
Are you serious? The guys who died at the Waldbaum’s fire didn’t die as a RESULT of vertical ventilation. They died being on the roof PERFORMNG vertical ventilation. It was a trussed roof collapse due to a second roof layer (rain roof) over the original roof layer (bowstring truss). Their original observation revealed little heat and smoke when they first opened up. Tragically, fire was under the original roof layer burning with great intensity. Before this was realized, the roof gave way and 6 lives were lost. If you read Vincent Dunn’s Collapse of Burning Buildings or John Norman’s Handbook of Tactics you would know some of the details of the Waldbaum’s collapse. I get sick of guys commenting about tactics and using misinformed facts to try and justify their dumbass comments. Know what you are talking about before you throw out some evidence to back your claims. The removal of superheated gases, pressure, and smoke had nothing to do with the Waldbaum’s fire. If this was a post on bowstring trussed roofs or building construction then the Waldbaum’s fire would be relevant. As for a topic discussing ventilation tactics, the Waldbaum’s fire has nothing to do with it.
A thing to think about in regards to the post on ventilation tactics. You guys saying you can shut off a fan if things go bad, but you can’t close a roof hole; better think about what you are saying. Yeah, at the burn building in training, shutting the fan off may work, but try doing that at a structure fire with void spaces and the unknown. Unless the guys inside have a remote to control the fan; reading conditions from the outside and saying shut it down is going to be too little too late. The fan is introducing or adding to the interior environment. There are many variables with timing and FF positioning that have to be just right for PPA to be safely effective. The roof hole adds nothing to the interior, it simply allows the fire to take its natural path. Air is not drawn down into the fire. The fire seeks the path of least resistance(which is up) and will consume the available oxygen at the roof.
Both types of venting have their places. Not every roof needs cut, and not all fires need PPV. Know your job and continually learn all you can to make yourself a better firefighter. Don’t let the fireground be your training ground. Be smart enough to know when to use certain tactics. If you don’t know, ask someone with experience. Remember, experience is time doing the job, not just time on the job.
Sorry for the rant, stay safe brothers/sisters.
Good rant and good points made. Could that possibly put an end to this?
The color of the smoke indicated incomplete combustion.
The outside water attack pushed the heat to the front of the bluiding. Ventilation in the rear must be done to allow the front attack to be succesful. A simular incended accured back 40 years ago when I was on the tip going in to attack the fire in the rear of the factory. I expected to fire to be ventilated at the rear of the where the fire started. The opened the overhead truck doors in front where I entered. I hit the ceiling and the water came down hot. So I and my buddy pulled out, and the entire factory back-flashed.
Pretty timely discussion….I just finished a one day HOT session on PPV/PPA this afternoon. Surprising to see (not really) the variation in the discussion in here on “how it should be done” amongst those who are proponents. I’m not going to make any claims as to it should/shouldn’t be done the way some of the folks in here are suggesting. What I’am suggesting is that we back up our methods not only with experience ….but with some valid research as well….then train and train some more.
For the opponents, I’m only hoping that before you pass judgement you take the time to research the topic from some credible sources and look at some of the videos floating around with the mindset that we don’t really have the full picture of what actually took place causing some of these nasty events. I can’t tell you if the point of exhaust was the correct size, if it was in the correct location, if it was created prior to the blower getting fired up….etc etc.
cool link….check out the TIC video.
http://www.fireventstudy.com/
Blower comes on at about 2:10 into video
PPV works just fine when the efforts are coordinated correctly. This video seems (to me) to depict the need for effective and constant communication on the fireground- both into the fire AND out of the fire.
By this, I mean that as an attack crew (knowing PPV would be applied at some point), the Incident Commander should have been notified of the conditions not being conducive for mass oxygenation.
I understand this was a live-fire training??
Then, where was the Safety Officer??
And, why did he not catch this??
ICS for EVERY INCIDENT. Especially with that many bodies standing around.
Another thing- possibly more pressing:
As departments move into the modern era with new tools and equipment- PPV fans in this case, they must also bring the new tactics and training for said equipment.
We have learned time and time again of improper use of equipment causing “SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH”…
Sound familiar?? It should. It comes off of that little sticker on the equipment that says “For Use by Trained Professionals Only”.
Let’s be smart and learn how to use our tools that our City/Community has purchased for us to learn how to use properly to help them. (Yes, I know that was a run-on…sorry.)
In all seriousness, though, of course we’re all glad that everybody went home that day. And yes, I hope everybody learned something from this mistake. We just don’t need to help boost the LODD numbers by simply not knowing how to use our tools properly.
I don’t care what department you work for, we ALL have at least a few mins of downtime each shift that we can use to go over/learn a tool that we may have not picked up in a while.
After all, it’s your butt on the line- not to mention your brothers’ and sisters’ butts, too.
Stay Low.
This fire is an acquired structure training fire where all of the big three precautions are violated when you choose to use pressurization to facilitate your fire attack.
1. Command and control, including education was not present. individuals in this drill have been educated wrong regarding the use of blower. 2. too small of an exhaust, the exhaust has to match the energy within the building. 3. firefighters inside the structure and then putting a blower in place. One could also say that the amount of pressure with that size of blower in that 500 square foot house was crazy,,,,
We advocate never using PPA until the environment is clearing, it should be working before entering, We also advocate never using blowers if you are utilizing VES as a tactic.
Tons of wrong information out there regarding pressurized attack. we have been teaching this all over the country and world for over 15 years to over 15,000 firefighters and when they utilize it as we educate them to,,,things are fine. When they don’t they may get away with it 90- out of 100 times but if they continue to operate outside the big 3 precautions listed above they will eventually burn stuff down and injure civilians and firefighters.
i did not see anyone do a walk around, the back end was not opened up to allow the fire to be pushed, also the exterior attack concerns me…read the smoke went from light gray and pushing to black and that was before the fan was even placed and this very well could of been because of the exterior attack pushing the fire and giving it more oxygen… the guy on the porch did good to hold his own and not rip the hose out of the fire and leaving his guys trapped…
it is important to train with this stuff all the time especially if you are going to use it
Interesting use of PPV, not exactly textbook.
This is a great training video. From the start of getting off the rig to the flashover at the end.Watch it over and over and learn what not to do. I will not bash another fire company fire tatics but if you keep watching this video over and over you can see what went wrong .Take care be safe everybody goes home.
Can someone send me the video of the adding fuel to the fire from palm Beach fla. Feb. 8, 2009
You can see clearly that the nozzel was never open. Smoke never changed. This looks like a training fire. They advaced the nozzel in but didnt open it. The fan had nothing to do with this.
wow…..sad….that is why we hate going to another city to put their fires out..scared one of their “boys” is going to pull a stunt like this
Okay, I get it, it’s a training fire, but where were the instructors? There was so much wrong with this, those FF are lucky to be alive. First, it looked as though there was an offensive/defensive attack going on at the same time. (However, I could not see where the exterior rear line was directed on) Second, the smoke conditions would suggest to not enter this building without proper ventilation in place, third NEVER start a fan with firefighters in the building, PERIOD!. Positive Pressure Attack has its place, and if deployed in the first 30 seconds of this fire, it would have worked. A proper exhaust hole is critical, the fan placed before entry wait for conditions to clear and then enter. Easy, we’ve trained on this for a year before we started using it. If not done correctly, someone will die, if done correctly lives will be saved. This department needs more training on how to conduct a live burn.